I Almost Forgot About It---BVR Combat---No Need For The Machine Gun:---

[MastanKhan]

We can say the same for the whole of the conflict ...... there is nothing confirm except that a Mig crashed and indian pilot captured ........ all of the rest is just speculation / non confirmed information. However, that Mig and its pilot does confirm that engagement took place over Pakistani skies ....... so it most probably was a dog fight because per claims thunders were returning from a mission within enemy territory .......

Hi,

It is mentioned nowhere that thunders were returning from a mission---.

But reference has been made that the enemy aircraft were enticed to a certain area where the thunders were waiting---.

Last ditch effort when both BVRAAM and SRAAM is expired, i will completely disagree with you and congress is not eligible to do with F-35 project USAF want the gun for last resort @MastanKhan

Hi,

You still don't get it---there will be no last ditch efforts---. A very good chance that there would be minimal WVR---once BVR's are used---turn and run---.

Seems like you have not read it yet---most aircraft will die with all their load of BVR missiles---so---forget about the WVR and machine gun---.

 

[I.R.A]

But reference has been made that the enemy aircraft were enticed to a certain area where the thunders were waiting---.

Sir what minimum distance BVR needs for it to be fired or is it anytime available as an option? A lame question may be ..... I hope you won't mind answering.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir what minimum distance BVR needs for it to be fired or is it anytime available as an option? A lame question may be ..... I hope you won't mind answering.

Hi,

I believe some BVR missiles can be fired for a closer target---maybe from 5-10 miles---. You will have to search for it---. It is different for different BVR missiles---.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hi,

It is mentioned nowhere that thunders were returning from a mission---.

But reference has been made that the enemy aircraft were enticed to a certain area where the thunders were waiting---.



Hi,

You still don't get it---there will be no last ditch efforts---. A very good chance that there would be minimal WVR---once BVR's are used---turn and run---.

Seems like you have not read it yet---most aircraft will die with all their load of BVR missiles---so---forget about the WVR and machine gun---.

So why F-22 carry 2 AIM-9 and If battle b/w stealth jets if enemy shot BVR at F-22/F-35 what should it do @MastanKhan

 

[Imran Khan]

If not cannon then laser.

we are paksitan sir not that much advance country

 

[I.R.A]

Hi,

I believe some BVR missiles can be fired for a closer target---maybe from 5-10 miles---. You will have to search for it---. It is different for different BVR missiles---.

Sir, whatever I could gather in this little time is that .... in close proximity BVR may be the last resort ....... reason .... because of friendlies in the same space, it happens to have a problem identifying friends and foes, or you may end up making an error. The distance mentioned on internet is 37 km and beyond.

Sir, still imagine a scenario Pakistani jets that intruded indian airspace locked on targets accomplished their mission are returning from indian airspace into Pakistani airspace and they have indian fighters chasing them at their tails .... now Pakistan has another party ready to engage those chasing / intruding indian jets ........ would that other party risk firing BVR? If it wasn't that other party then the engagement happened between Pakistani jets returning from india and those downed indian jets .... which most probably is dogfight.

 

[RealNapster]

we are paksitan sir not that much advance country

Can’t we integrate those Rs.60 Laser with that “Skull cap” to our Jf-17’s ? Or maybe the dragon one. It will be fun. NVM... i think Gun should stay, though in a limited form but still, stay. It acts as a last resort.

 

[SQ8]

JF-17 kill was likely WVR; that doesn’t discount BVR effectiveness but that employment tactics and windows aren’t always available.

In this case it’s possible a visual ID could have been necessary or friendly flights to be clear of engagement zone before taking down the Mig.

 

[Ultima Thule]

we are paksitan sir not that much advance country

He is talking about F-35 and upcoming 6th gen jets not for Pakistan Imran bhai @Imran Khan

 

[PakSword]

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

Sir, with all due respect, on 26th, you were criticizing PAF, and on 27th, you were no where to be found on this forum. Some people made fun of you on that day.

Guns or not, PAF knows what is its strengths and what are its weaknesses, and it very well knows about them, I think more than you or any other forum member here who isn't associated with PAF currently. I know this wasn't a full fledged battle, but given the amount of money available to PAF, the action on 27th was the best they could pull off.

Please don't take it to your heart.

Now coming back to guns, I am no expert, but what I know that PAF pilots are even trained to ram their jets in case they are out of fuel on enemy territory. guns might come handy in those close encounters?

 

[jetray]

Hi,

People---I almost forgot about it---but how could I---.

Paf shoots down it first two modern enemy aircraft with BVR missiles---.

Remember when 10 + years ago when I started talking about the lethality of modern BVR missiles---as to how deadly they are and how deadly they are going to be---and possibly most of the combat is going to be BVR and BVR only---and merges would be a thing of the past-.

And on top of that I mentioned---there would be no room for a machine gun or a canon on a modern aircraft---.

I am pretty sure that most of you---who poked fun at me are eating crow---.

The very first air to air battle of the modern and capable fighter aircraft of similar capability resulted in a BVR missile fight---resulted in enemy's aircraft casualty and supposedly had a very high kill ratio---.

Do you people remember those fools on high position on this forum who would jump back to the vietnam war era air to air combat and the failure of the air to air missiles---these morons and goofballs were think tank members and think tank chairperson---and they were full of sarcasm and insults---hey you---look who is the fool now---.

You fools---I told you then---the technology has expanded over a million times from the vietnam era---the old computer that would fill a house is being captured in the palm of the hand today and has a million times more processing power---and yet you guys kept on harping your intellect out of sheer stupidity---.

It amazed and surprised me when I tried to explain---look guys---nations are fielding these million dollar + bvr missiles---they have so much investment behind these missiles---it is technically not possible for these missiles to fail---but the error was on my part that I was trying to teach water buffaloes and bulls the intricacies and fine points of classical music---.

I then stated something else as well---the machine gun would be an obsolete item for a modern fighter aircraft---and the same group of people talked about the same vietnam era bullsh-it---the Phantom episode---.

Today I shut them off as well---.

Today's modern warfare between similar modern aircraft would not leave time for the fighter pilot to look for where his guns are pointed at---neither would he have the time to get closer and lock the target to the gun sight and let go of a burst---.

So---shut the fck up you guys---. Time always brings out the truth---and you think tankers and mods have been put to shame---not all---but many of you---.

So---in this very first air to air combat---you people will acknowledge the ferocity of the BVR combat---you people will acknowledge the lethality of the BVR combat---and once you acknowledge the gains due to BVR combat---you will do your very best to stay out of any other combat that would get you in any closer position to the enemy---.

The machine gun / canon can be replaced with an extra modular fuel tank---or any other EW device helpfull to the aircraft etc etc etc---.

Machine gun is like a backup when you exhaust all the missiles. It is more or less like bayonet for a rifle.

Machine gun can be quite cost effective option for a slow moving target like helicopter or large aircraft like fuel tanker or awacs. Second thing is that machine gun can be used to intimidate the target without bringing them down where you want to force the target to land.

In a match of equals BVR is a must, no doubt about it.

 

[Sabretooth]

Sir with all due respect why do you think that the Americans with all the technology at their disposal have installed a Gatling gun on the F35????

Because the boys on the ground love to hear that Brrrrrrtt..... sound

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hi,

In current warfare---there is no enemy capability of firing at the F22 or the F35---.

Meaning---no enemy can see it at BVR---ie---enemy radar cannot see it even if 8-10 miles in front of you---while you may see it---your electronic eye would be blind to its presence

Networked radar and sensors can see F-22/F-35, F-22/F-35 is not invisible to electromagnetic wave sir and how do you know that Russia and China don't see F-22/F-35 at all from networked/layered senors/Radars @MastanKhan

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

It is mentioned nowhere that thunders were returning from a mission---.

But reference has been made that the enemy aircraft were enticed to a certain area where the thunders were waiting---.



Hi,

You still don't get it---there will be no last ditch efforts---. A very good chance that there would be minimal WVR---once BVR's are used---turn and run---.

Seems like you have not read it yet---most aircraft will die with all their load of BVR missiles---so---forget about the WVR and machine gun---.

You are right, BVR Missiles and to some extent WVR missiles depending on rules of engagement, as well as Superior Electronics will be the deciding factors for the foreseeable future. One only has to look at the proposed "F-21" offering from Lockeed to India or the Rafale for India to know what systems they think will give them the edge.

The list includes:
1. Up to date EW equipment and signature libraries on every aircraft
2. At least 2 RF Decoys on a tether on either side of the aircraft
3. More advanced BVR missiles like the Meteor or in our case a Ramjet PL-12D or the PL-15, along side the PL-10E as backup WVR missile.
4. IRST
5. HMS
6. Modern Aesa (with the latest LPI algorithms)
7. advanced IFF at long range for positive identification to allow BVR shots without having to get into visual range
8. Advanced Data-links so sensor data from any and all nodes can be passed on to our fighter
9. A modern Human Machine Interface for faster processing of all the relevant information by the pilot
10. AI guided recommendations to help fight the fight using the best calculated maneuvers (as shown in the HMS)
11. quick turn around of the aircraft so 4-5 sorties can be generated per plane and a high availability percentage is always possible for the fleet
12. Auto Ground collision avoidance system so the pilot can go for the maneuver needed to win the fight and the plane will save the pilot even if they blackout afterwards by correcting the planes flight
13. modern engines so the plane has the ability to super-cruise, but generally will use it for longer loiter times at sub-sonic patrol speed
14. modern low,medium, and high band apertures to detect low observable aircraft

A Dedicated EW "Growler" Variant to escort a strike or fighter package will also be needed; especially in an area with an integrated air defense network.

 

[Thorough Pro]

60/65 miles minimum in head on engagements, 5/10 miles in chase

To all Pakistani members with uncles and aunts in the Airforce or Army, Secrecy about our capabilities is a big big advantage.

Sir what minimum distance BVR needs for it to be fired or is it anytime available as an option? A lame question may be ..... I hope you won't mind answering.