Holy Prophet Military Maneuver 12

[Bahram Esfandiari]

as far as I'm aware there is no kickback for RPG and your active hand usually get the triger which is in front

You are correct, the dominant hand naturally goes for the trigger!

 

[AmirPatriot]

The maneuver reminded me what a incredible machine the BMP-2 was when it first came and still is...
The Shah opted for the BMP-1 over the weak M113, but it was the BMP-2 with it's 30mm gun that makes the difference.
It was a very good idea to by the license for the BMP-2 from the Russians.
What else, even today, gives you amphibious assault capability and a 30mm gun that can do suppression fire bursts at incredible 550 rounds per minute.

It's like the T-72B of the IFV world in terms of cost-performance.

But a very cost effective .50 cal can rip it to shreds from the side. It's an IFV with APC protection.

 

[PeeD]

But a very cost effective .50 cal can rip it to shreds from the side. It's an IFV with APC protection.

If deemed necessary, add a NERA or ERA type add-on armour or better ATGMs and night optics.
This is a product of the 70's. Fundamentally it is a great IFV with open potentials.

Give me a tandem RPG-7 round or 30mm APFSDS rounds and i will take out most western super-heavy (in comparison), several times more expensive IFV which could never deliver that kind of suppression fire, necessary for assaults.

 

[T-72B]

The maneuver reminded me what a incredible machine the BMP-2 was when it first came and still is...
The Shah opted for the BMP-1 over the weak M113, but it was the BMP-2 with it's 30mm gun that makes the difference.
It was a very good idea to by the license for the BMP-2 from the Russians.
What else, even today, gives you amphibious assault capability and a 30mm gun that can do suppression fire bursts at incredible 550 rounds per minute.

It's like the T-72B of the IFV world in terms of cost-performance.

@PeeD why those this war game doesn’t include tanks?

 

[mohsen]

Officially it was still a defensive exercise because the objective of the exercise was to recapture an Iranian Island from an invading force!

No buddy, officially it was an offensive drill:

رزمایشی برای رونمایی از «عملیات تهاجمی» در دکترین دفاعی جمهوری اسلامی/ سردار پاکپور: بهترین دفاع «هجوم» است/ فرمانده کل سپاه: امیدواریم دشمنان به توان پاسخ کوبنده ما در «تعقیب دشمن» پی برده باشند

در مرحله نهایی دوازدهمین رزمایش پیامبر اعظم(ص)، غواصان و تکاوران نیروی زمینی سپاه با اجرای عملیات تهاجم به ساحل، تصرف سرزمین و تاسیسات استراتژیک دشمن را تمرین کردند.

recapturing the occupied island was just one part of the drill which was performed by armored units, the other part was attacking the enemy's coasts which was performed by our commandos:

The statement of General Pakpour:
"best defense is offense , If enemy wants to threaten us or apply his threat, we will be all offensive and will pursue the targets deep in enemy's front(side)"

He didn't even say invade us, he said threaten or apply his threat, and a threat isn't necessarily invasion, for example, if a guy in Saudi Arabia thinks he could support terrorists groups and openly say we should bring the conflicts into Iran, we will show him a proper response!

 

[PeeD]

@PeeD why those this war game doesn’t include tanks?

Only things relevant to a amphibious landing/assault were shown.
The drill most likely included tanks but those are not relevant for a setting up a bridgehead. After that yes, tanks would follow but that's not relevant for delivering the message.

 

[AmirPatriot]

If deemed necessary, add a NERA or ERA type add-on armour or better ATGMs and night optics.

I wouldn't say ERA, since that only really protects against chemical rounds. Bolt-on armour like in some Eastern European upgrades would be the solution. ERA would be useful if you're trying to defeat RPGs though.

This is a product of the 70's.

And we're coming up to the 2020s.

Give me a tandem RPG-7 round or 30mm APFSDS rounds and i will take out most western super-heavy (in comparison), several times more expensive IFV

Touché (though I've heard modern versions of the M2 Bradley can defeat 30 mm APDS). But the point is that tandem RPGs and 30 mm APDS are much less available than a .50 cal.

 

[TheImmortal]

For those saying this is a message for Bahrain or UAE need to get a grip with reality.

China #2 military power in the world, would suffer heavy losses setting up a beachhead on Taiwan. Furthermore, even today China still lacks a large enough amphibious landing capability to conquer Taiwan and China has a robust Navy.

Iran simply does not have the Navy nor the amphibious capability to stage a major beachhead on either Bahrain (major US Military presence) or UAE (SU-35’s would tear the landing party before it even reached shores.)

This is actually for Qatar and Iran’s islands. IRGC and Qatar have a security pact that allows IRGC Navy vessels to enter Qatari waters and even land to protect against a Saudi Arabian land invasion of Qatar. Lastly, this is also for Iran’s own islands which the US or even Saudi Arabia/PGCC may try to conquer and annex in any war.

 

[PeeD]

I wouldn't say ERA, since that only really protects against chemical rounds. Bolt-on armour like in some Eastern European upgrades would be the solution. ERA would be useful if you're trying to defeat RPGs though.

The question is solution to what: What protection do you want for an amphibious IFV? Right ERA can handle CE and KE rounds.
Armor is not whats critical in such IFV. Firepower, mobility and shrapnel protection is.
Modern heavy weapons will almost always kill IFVs.

And we're coming up to the 2020s.

TI optics and Kornet is what I recommend. More pushed down cost effectiveness. In a counter insurgency scenario, yes, then I would add a ERA or slat armor package.

Touché (though I've heard modern versions of the M2 Bradley can defeat 30 mm APDS). But the point is that tandem RPGs and 30 mm APDS are much less available than a .50 cal.

The BMP-2 is protected against any 12,7mm HMG, except for unlikely scenarios of attacks to its side at just a few 100m maybe.
Artillery shrapnel and anything up to HMG, that's more or less what is the requirement for a IFV. You can go for more but at some point you and up with a tank.

 

[skyshadow]

For those saying this is a message for Bahrain or UAE need to get a grip with reality.

China #2 military power in the world, would suffer heavy losses setting up a beachhead on Taiwan. Furthermore, even today China still lacks a large enough amphibious landing capability to conquer Taiwan and China has a robust Navy.

Iran simply does not have the Navy nor the amphibious capability to stage a major beachhead on either Bahrain (major US Military presence) or UAE (SU-35’s would tear the landing party before it even reached shores.)

This is actually for Qatar and Iran’s islands. IRGC and Qatar have a security pact that allows IRGC Navy vessels to enter Qatari waters and even land to protect against a Saudi Arabian land invasion of Qatar. Lastly, this is also for Iran’s own islands which the US or even Saudi Arabia/PGCC may try to conquer and annex in any war.

Lastly, this is also for Iran’s own islands which the US or even Saudi Arabia/PGCC may try to conquer and annex in any war.

and that is why we say its massage. UAE says 3 Iranian islands are part of UAE and Iran should give them back.

 

[Stryker1982]

Lastly, this is also for Iran’s own islands which the US or even Saudi Arabia/PGCC may try to conquer and annex in any war.

and that is why we say its massage. UAE says 3 Iranian islands are part of UAE and Iran should give them back.

If UAE even dares to try to take those Islands, Dubai and Abu Dhabi would be a ghost town within days.

 

[TheImmortal]

Lastly, this is also for Iran’s own islands which the US or even Saudi Arabia/PGCC may try to conquer and annex in any war.

and that is why we say its massage. UAE says 3 Iranian islands are part of UAE and Iran should give them back.

UAE didn’t even exist a century ago.

Iran (Persia) has had control over those islands for more than 2000 years.

 

[AmirPatriot]

What protection do you want for an amphibious IFV

At least all-round protection against .50 cals. The BMP-2 only has it on the 60° frontal arc. And a beach is going to be full of machine gun nests.

Artillery shrapnel and anything up to HMG, that's more or less what is the requirement for a IFV

That's more like the requirements for an APC. IFVs are meant to be more armoured and better armed so they can fight in urban areas and under relatively heavy fire.

 

[PeeD]

At least all-round protection against .50 cals. The BMP-2 only has it on the 60° frontal arc. And a beach is going to be full of machine gun nests.

Some may speculate so but lets say that if operated properly, there exists maybe a 5% chance a HMG could penetrate and kill a BMP-2. Its a statistical thing.

That's more like the requirements for an APC. IFVs are meant to be more armoured and better armed so they can fight in urban areas and under relatively heavy fire.

For anything more than shrapnel and small arms to HMG you need something like ERA or NERA and there is no end to it: If you can protect against PG-7 you may remain venerable against tandem RPG rounds. Then what about recoilless guns? If you can protect against those you may not be able to protect against machine canon firing APFSDS if you achieve that a tandem TOW/Konkurs will still kill you...
The job of a IFV is to mechanize your infantry squads, give them machine canon level firepower plus plenty ATGMs and long range targeting.
Mechanize more of your infantry squads instead of trying to build a low firepower tank that will never reach tank protection level. If you are Israel, then yes, spend that extra money for a Merkava IV based Namer IFV or dream about numbers of a T-15 IFV.
In all other cases you better equip your infantry squads with BMP-2's, a light, fast, amphibious IFV with very high firepower. As you know you can get several of those for western IFVs.

There are many analogues to this case: Iran will probably soon show a Spike based fire and forget ATGM but if it is not cheap enough, the better approach is to equip more units with Dehlaviye ATGMs instead.

A IFV in urban warfare is a sitting duck, you can develop a ERA packe for it in such conditions if RPGs are the maximum the enemies have. But better send MRAPs there and equip the BMP-2 with a TI equipped optics to provide 30mm high ROF firepower from RPG-safe distances.

 

[TheImmortal]

As Yemen war has shown, MRAPs and Bradleys in the hands of incompetent militaries, don’t stand a chance against experienced guirella fighters.

A MRAP or an IFV is not supposed to protect itself against ALL incoming threats. It’s supposed to move alongside a well organized attack including tanks and infantry and some air support.

This issue comes down to tactics, Muslim armies for some reason throw caution to the window and send these vehicles into urban or open terrain by themselves or with little reinforcement protection. As both Saudi Arabia and Syria have used these vehicles incorrectly.