Hindu caste system in different point of view

[Hellfire]

Constitution of India.

I hope you understand the meaning of 'reference/cite'.

In case not, please go through the undermentioned pertinent extracts with sources:

Reference

: something (such as a sign or indication) that refers a reader or consulter to another source of information (such as a book or passage)

: consultation of sources of information

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reference

Cite

: to quote by way of example, authority, or proof

: to refer to

: to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cite


Please specify the relevant extracts/paragraphs/lines from the Constitution of India for our reference.

A generalized statement is merely - a statement. Can you provide a referenced evidence for your claim?

 

[Sugarcane]

I hope you understand the meaning of 'reference/cite'.

In case not, please go through the undermentioned pertinent extracts with sources:

Reference

: something (such as a sign or indication) that refers a reader or consulter to another source of information (such as a book or passage)

: consultation of sources of information

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reference

Cite

: to quote by way of example, authority, or proof

: to refer to

: to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cite


Please specify the relevant extracts/paragraphs/lines from the Constitution of India for our reference.

A generalized statement is merely - a statement. Can you provide a referenced evidence for your claim?

I thought being Indian you will be aware that Scheduled castes and tribes are constitutional and legal terms for backward and low and outcast people, Article 338, 339, 340, 341, 342 are related to it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is a defence of the same sickening Hindu social and spiritual order.

If you had read what I wrote before getting into Pavlovian mode......but then if you had read it, you would not have lobotomised views. There was no reference to social or spiritual order in the remarks; you merely injected it in order to have a familiar point of reference. Not uncommon in the case of limited thinking running on tramlines.

Plus the hate for Abrahamic religions is also unfounded but not unsurprising.

'Hugely preferable' translates in your lexicon as hatred? No wonder you are so sadly misunderstood.

And why unsurprising? because it conveys falsely a sense of encountering a well-worn stereotype? That is a rather shallow evasion of any serious refutation, but, if I might coin a phrase, 'unsurprising'.

A more equal society based on Islam in India will benefit all more compared to the one on Varna.

Very poor logic. Just tacking on 'based on Islam' is valueless; a more equal society in India would benefit all. This is Procrustean logic; every situation is force-fitted into the referenced paradigm, with no effort at examining the natural fit.

And it's not hatred. Islam does not hate Hinduism as a religion. It just does not even recognise it as one.

Pardon me, but your hypocrisy is drowning out your unctuous tones; there are areas of India where there has been no hatred of Hinduism as a religion by Muslim individuals, and these are the south-west and the far east. In the north-west, right through the Gangetic Plain, and down the Indus Valley, and up in the Vale of Kashmir, the record is one of unmitigated hatred, and of sadistic oppression whenever the opportunity presented itself for several centuries. Even here, there were conversions due to conviction, conversions due to an overwhelming wave of faith, but the record is grim. Not just in action; a cursory glance through any contemporary writing displays the same vindictive pleasure.

But neither do hindus. It's not worthy of being compared side by side, no offense.

None taken. You would have to grow enormously to have your opinion, pompous and highfalutin as it is, taken seriously. No offence. Or offense, if you prefer.

Idol worship is totally regressive and a waste of time. Common spaces can easily exist among Muslims without the need for any idol. Your defence of idol worship is not tenable, sorry.

Indeed. An idol is not merely an anthropomorphic image. I did not defend idol worship, I merely put it in its social context. Apparently you are used to the g***tal displays readily visible as a substitute for argument in YouTube comments; try to gain some sense of your context before you make the mistake of evading answers by taking refuge in airy dismissals.

 

[Hellfire]

I thought being Indian you will be aware that Scheduled castes and tribes are constitutional and legal terms for backward and low and outcast people,

My Dear Sir.

I thought that you would have been diligent enough to have done your home work before posting too. But I guess, we both are, how shall I say, surprised?

For the portion highlighted in red. Something to make you realize that you have been less than diligent in your study.

The definition of what constitutes Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, is elaborated under Article 366 of the Constitution of India, 366 (24) & 366 (25) respectively. Shall post the same:

Article 366:

Definition In this Constitution, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:

24. Scheduled Castes means such cases, races or tribes or parts of or groups within such castes, races or tribes as are deemed under Article 341 to be Scheduled Castes for the purposes of this Constitution;

25. Scheduled Tribes means such tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within such tribes or tribal communities as are deemed under Article 342 to be Scheduled Tribes for the purposes of this Constitution;



Now the pertinent question comes, what exactly is the origin of the same? Had you undertaken due diligence, you would have found that the Scheduled castes are not, strictly speaking, a racial, linguistic or religious minority. They are part and parcel of the Hindu society, by and large. They are "those depressed sections of the Hindus who have suffered for long under social handicaps and thus need special protection and help for the amelioration of their social, economic and political condition."

They were called by various names throughout history, but now referred to, as well known, as Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. From the 1850s these communities were loosely referred to as the “Depressed Classes" by the British India Government.

In 1935 the British passed The Government of India Act of 1935, which designed the provinces greater self rule and set up a national federal structure (as you may, hopefully, be aware). Reservation of Seats to the depressed Classes was incorporated into the act, for the very first time. The Act came into force in 1937.

The Act brought the term “Scheduled Castes” into use, and defined the group as including “such castes, races or tribes, which appear to His Majesty in council to correspond to the classes of persons formerly known as the “Depressed Classes”, as His Majesty in council may prefer.” (Page 217, Government of India Act, Schedule I Para 26). It is also interesting to note that the Act had also brought about reservation for Muslims, Sikhs and Women too. (Page 211, Government of India Act, Schedule I Para 4)

This discretionary definition was clarified in The Government of India (Scheduled Castes) order, 1936 which contained a list or Schedule, of Castes throughout the British administered provinces. After independence, the Constituent Assembly continued the prevailing definition of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes which was provided in the Government of India Act, 1935, and gave the responsibility to the President of India and Governors of States to compile a full listing of Castes and Tribes, and also the power to edit it later as required (and has been undertaken from time to time). The actual complete listing of Castes and Tribes was made into two orders, i.e., The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950 and The Constitution (Scheduled Tribes) Order, 1950 respectively.


As you can see, there is no 'low' or 'outcast' applicable anywhere. It is merely the underprivileged who are socio-economically backwards.

Article 338, 339, 340, 341, 342 are related to it.

Let us examine the Articles as under your references:

Article 338:

Special Officer for Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes etc

(1) There shall be a Special Officer for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to be appointed by the President

(2) It shall be the duty of the Special Officer to investigate all matters relating to the safeguards provided for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes under this Constitution and report to the President upon the working of those safeguards at such intervals as the President may direct, and the President shall cause all such reports to be laid before each House of Parliament

(3) In this article references to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes shall be construed as including references to such other backward classes as the President may, on receipt of the report of a Commission appointed under clause ( 1 ) of Article 340, by order specify and also to the Anglo Indian community


Article 339:

Control of the Union over the administration of Scheduled Areas and the welfare of Scheduled Tribes

(1) The President may at any time and shall, at the expiration of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution by order appoint a Commission to report on the administration of the Scheduled Areas and the welfare of this Scheduled Tribes in the States The order may define the composition, powers and procedure of the Commission and may contain such incidental or ancillary provisions as the President may consider necessary or desirable

(2) The executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to a State as to the drawing up and execution of schemes specified in the direction to be essential for the welfare of the Scheduled Tribes in the State

Article 340:

Appointment of a Commission to investigate the conditions of backward classes

(1) The President may by order appoint a Commission consisting of such persons as he thinks fit to investigate the conditions of socially and educationally backward classes within the territory of India and the difficulties under which they labour and to make recommendations as to the steps that should be taken by the Union or any State to remove such difficulties and to improve their condition and as to the grants that should be made for the purpose by the Union or any State the conditions subject to which such grants should be made, and the order appointing such Commission shall define the procedure to be followed by the Commission

(2) A Commission so appointed shall investigate the matters referred to them and present to the President a report setting out the facts as found by them and making such recommendations as they think proper

(3) The President shall cause a copy of the report so presented together with a memorandum explaining the action taken thereon to be laid before each House of Parliament


Article 341:

Scheduled Castes

(1) The President may with respect to any State or Union territory, and where it is a State after consultation with the Governor thereof, by public notification, specify the castes, races or tribes or parts of or groups within castes, races or tribes which shall for the purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Castes in relation to that State or Union territory, as the case may be

(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Castes specified in a notification issued under clause ( 1 ) any caste, race or tribe or part of or group within any caste, race or tribe, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification

Article 342:

Scheduled Tribes

(1) The President may with respect to any State or Union territory, and where it is a State, after consultation with the Governor thereof, by public notification, specify the tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within tribes or tribal communities which shall for the purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Tribes in relation to that State or Union territory, as the case may be

(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Tribes specified in a notification issued under clause ( 1 ) any tribe or tribal community or part of or group within any tribe or tribal community, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification


Your original post as quoted by me (undermentioned in bold) is inconsistent with anything that your references as above, have to say about the matter:


"Caste based discrimination is embedded in constitution of India. Calling it positive discrimination doesn't change the basic fact."

Please feel free to cite/reference anything in Constitution which sanctions a 'caste based discrimination'.

 

[Nilgiri]

Constitution of India.

Terrorism is embedded in Constitution of Pakistan.

Cite it.

Constitution of Pakistan.

I thought that you would have been diligent enough

thots!

 

[Sugarcane]

My Dear Sir.

I thought that you would have been diligent enough to have done your home work before posting too. But I guess, we both are, how shall I say, surprised?

For the portion highlighted in red. Something to make you realize that you have been less than diligent in your study.

The definition of what constitutes Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, is elaborated under Article 366 of the Constitution of India, 366 (24) & 366 (25) respectively. Shall post the same:

Article 366:

Definition In this Constitution, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:

24. Scheduled Castes means such cases, races or tribes or parts of or groups within such castes, races or tribes as are deemed under Article 341 to be Scheduled Castes for the purposes of this Constitution;

25. Scheduled Tribes means such tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within such tribes or tribal communities as are deemed under Article 342 to be Scheduled Tribes for the purposes of this Constitution;



Now the pertinent question comes, what exactly is the origin of the same? Had you undertaken due diligence, you would have found that the Scheduled castes are not, strictly speaking, a racial, linguistic or religious minority. They are part and parcel of the Hindu society, by and large. They are "those depressed sections of the Hindus who have suffered for long under social handicaps and thus need special protection and help for the amelioration of their social, economic and political condition."

They were called by various names throughout history, but now referred to, as well known, as Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. From the 1850s these communities were loosely referred to as the “Depressed Classes" by the British India Government.

In 1935 the British passed The Government of India Act of 1935, which designed the provinces greater self rule and set up a national federal structure (as you may, hopefully, be aware). Reservation of Seats to the depressed Classes was incorporated into the act, for the very first time. The Act came into force in 1937.

The Act brought the term “Scheduled Castes” into use, and defined the group as including “such castes, races or tribes, which appear to His Majesty in council to correspond to the classes of persons formerly known as the “Depressed Classes”, as His Majesty in council may prefer.” (Page 217, Government of India Act, Schedule I Para 26). It is also interesting to note that the Act had also brought about reservation for Muslims, Sikhs and Women too. (Page 211, Government of India Act, Schedule I Para 4)

This discretionary definition was clarified in The Government of India (Scheduled Castes) order, 1936 which contained a list or Schedule, of Castes throughout the British administered provinces. After independence, the Constituent Assembly continued the prevailing definition of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes which was provided in the Government of India Act, 1935, and gave the responsibility to the President of India and Governors of States to compile a full listing of Castes and Tribes, and also the power to edit it later as required (and has been undertaken from time to time). The actual complete listing of Castes and Tribes was made into two orders, i.e., The Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order, 1950 and The Constitution (Scheduled Tribes) Order, 1950 respectively.


As you can see, there is no 'low' or 'outcast' applicable anywhere. It is merely the underprivileged who are socio-economically backwards.





Let us examine the Articles as under your references:

Article 338:

Special Officer for Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes etc

(1) There shall be a Special Officer for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to be appointed by the President

(2) It shall be the duty of the Special Officer to investigate all matters relating to the safeguards provided for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes under this Constitution and report to the President upon the working of those safeguards at such intervals as the President may direct, and the President shall cause all such reports to be laid before each House of Parliament

(3) In this article references to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes shall be construed as including references to such other backward classes as the President may, on receipt of the report of a Commission appointed under clause ( 1 ) of Article 340, by order specify and also to the Anglo Indian community


Article 339:

Control of the Union over the administration of Scheduled Areas and the welfare of Scheduled Tribes

(1) The President may at any time and shall, at the expiration of ten years from the commencement of this Constitution by order appoint a Commission to report on the administration of the Scheduled Areas and the welfare of this Scheduled Tribes in the States The order may define the composition, powers and procedure of the Commission and may contain such incidental or ancillary provisions as the President may consider necessary or desirable

(2) The executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to a State as to the drawing up and execution of schemes specified in the direction to be essential for the welfare of the Scheduled Tribes in the State

Article 340:

Appointment of a Commission to investigate the conditions of backward classes

(1) The President may by order appoint a Commission consisting of such persons as he thinks fit to investigate the conditions of socially and educationally backward classes within the territory of India and the difficulties under which they labour and to make recommendations as to the steps that should be taken by the Union or any State to remove such difficulties and to improve their condition and as to the grants that should be made for the purpose by the Union or any State the conditions subject to which such grants should be made, and the order appointing such Commission shall define the procedure to be followed by the Commission

(2) A Commission so appointed shall investigate the matters referred to them and present to the President a report setting out the facts as found by them and making such recommendations as they think proper

(3) The President shall cause a copy of the report so presented together with a memorandum explaining the action taken thereon to be laid before each House of Parliament


Article 341:

Scheduled Castes

(1) The President may with respect to any State or Union territory, and where it is a State after consultation with the Governor thereof, by public notification, specify the castes, races or tribes or parts of or groups within castes, races or tribes which shall for the purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Castes in relation to that State or Union territory, as the case may be

(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Castes specified in a notification issued under clause ( 1 ) any caste, race or tribe or part of or group within any caste, race or tribe, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification

Article 342:

Scheduled Tribes

(1) The President may with respect to any State or Union territory, and where it is a State, after consultation with the Governor thereof, by public notification, specify the tribes or tribal communities or parts of or groups within tribes or tribal communities which shall for the purposes of this Constitution be deemed to be Scheduled Tribes in relation to that State or Union territory, as the case may be

(2) Parliament may by law include in or exclude from the list of Scheduled Tribes specified in a notification issued under clause ( 1 ) any tribe or tribal community or part of or group within any tribe or tribal community, but save as aforesaid a notification issued under the said clause shall not be varied by any subsequent notification


Your original post as quoted by me (undermentioned in bold) is inconsistent with anything that your references as above, have to say about the matter:


"Caste based discrimination is embedded in constitution of India. Calling it positive discrimination doesn't change the basic fact."

Please feel free to cite/reference anything in Constitution which sanctions a 'caste based discrimination'.

Writing that long essay wasn't needed, I have heard that argument dozen of times. Whatever the purpose is the basic fact remains that constitution of India tells that there are backward classes, it have list of those as schedule and yes it discriminate Indians based on castes which you call positive discrimination or affirmative action etc. by giving special benefits or quotas etc.

Terrorism is embedded in Constitution of Pakistan.

Cite it.

Constitution of Pakistan.





thots!

I cited the relevant articles as well to spoon feed, Now you can also run in circles to tell that SC/ST list isn't about backward and out caste people.

 

[Nilgiri]

I cited the relevant articles as well to spoon feed, Now you can also run in circles to tell that SC/ST list isn't about backward and out caste people.

hellfire already dealt with those "citations"

Learn difference between simply identifying classes and actual discrimination based on those classes (say actual Jim Crow kind of stuff in legislation....or Dredd Scott kind of ruling).

Or we going to say anything in Pakistan constitution that delineates population into groups (be it by ethnicity, religion etc) is automatically a discrimination just by doing that?

 

[Sugarcane]

hellfire already dealt with those "citations"

Learn difference between simply identifying classes and actual discrimination based on those classes (say actual Jim Crow kind of stuff in legislation....or Dredd Scott kind of ruling).

Or we going to say anything in Pakistan constitution that delineates population into groups (be it by ethnicity, religion etc) is automatically a discrimination just by doing that?

Fact 1. By identifying backward classes and maintaining list, this classification is embedded into constitution.
Fact 2. As there are special provisions and reservations based on castes, so people of India are constitutionally discriminated based on caste.

As I said you can run in circles and tell me affirmative action, positive side. But all that will not change the above two fact that support my initial post which you took as offence

 

[Nilgiri]

Fact 1. By identifying backward classes and maintaining list, this classification is embedded into constitution.

Not discrimination.

Fact 2. As there are special provisions and reservations based on castes, so people of India are constitutionally discriminated based on caste.

Those are external to the constitution.

Are we talking about constitution here or not?

 

[Sugarcane]

Not discrimination.



Those are external to the constitution.

Are we talking about constitution here or not?

Your agreement with embedded part is good start, if you reread the above articles and think logically then special provisions are there and job and Educational quotas etc. are measures to deliver constitutional safeguards and promised welfare.

 

[Hellfire]

Writing that long essay wasn't needed

That, sir, was only meant to indicate that without much of an effort, information can be found and assimilated after due perusal.

I have heard that argument dozen of times

And yet, surprisingly, you clearly failed to enunciate Article 366, which was the most relevant of the Articles as it defines the terms themselves. Had you been aware, the line would have been 'Articles 341 and 342, read in conjunction with Article 366......'

Whatever the purpose is the basic fact remains that constitution of India tells that there are backward classes, it have list of those as schedule and yes it discriminate Indians based on castes which you call positive discrimination or affirmative action etc. by giving special benefits or quotas etc.

The bold portion underlines your pre-conceived notions, in this case incorrect and ill informed. The Constitution of India does not 'tell' that there are backward classes, it merely acknowledges groups which are socio-economically disadvantaged. There is a difference between 'Tell' & 'acknowledge' in the context of the use here. While the former will only serve to communicate information, the latter is to underline the importance of the need to develop these groups as may be revised from time to time, for the overall objectives of the Constitution to be met.

Let me further your statement with context to your nation:

source: http://www.hec.gov.pk/english/services/faculty/fdp/Pages/Federal-Government-Quota-Policy.aspx

What are your comments for the above? Shall we, taking your logic to this aspect, not conclude that there is, as is a wide perception held both within and outside of Pakistan, an inherent discrimination carried out against both merit and rest of the regions of Pakistan to favor the Punjabis?

And what are your comments on the undermentioned? What do you think is the need of the hour for GoP to deal with the issue?

https://tribune.com.pk/story/357765/pakistans-caste-system-the-untouchables-struggle/

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2016/04/25/caste-system-of-pakistan/


Dear Sir. Not maintaining an official record does not make the issue go away. The only difference, as I have been oft found saying here, between India and Pakistan is that we are recognizing the problems we face and have the media activism wherein the problems are mainstreamed - be it rape, be it mental health (depression and suicide, a reportable data to WHO for India but Pakistan has no official data maintained) or be it the backwardness of socio-economically weaker sections of the society.



Let us further take your logic to the field of professions. The Higher Management gets much greater pay and perks than the worker in the same firm. Is that not discrimination? If to provide scope for opportunities under law for certain segment of society is discrimination, is this pay discrimination justified?

Let us extend it to your Armed Forces. Why do you have pay disparities for your officers and men? Is that not discrimination? After all, your officers are usually based away from Forward locations and it is your men who are facing the brunt?

 

[Sugarcane]

That, sir, was only meant to indicate that without much of an effort, information can be found and assimilated after due perusal.

And yet, surprisingly, you clearly failed to enunciate Article 366, which was the most relevant of the Articles as it defines the terms themselves. Had you been aware, the line would have been 'Articles 341 and 342, read in conjunction with Article 366......'

Man, I used to think that you are rational and thinking person. Article 366 is just introduction of constitutional/legal terms SC/ST which will be used. Coming up with theory of it acknowledge not tell, it's for affirmative action for their welfare, It's good thing not bad etc. doesn't change the fact that it's there. If someone have to find out backward and outcaste castes and tribes in India then he/she can simple lookup the lists notified by GoI under constitutional article 341 & 342. I don't why it's hard to acknowledge the simple fact, for example if you tell me that your constitution discriminate based on religion than I will be fool to try to convince you otherwise as whatever the purpose the fact is it does.

 

[untitled]

Let us extend it to your Armed Forces. Why do you have pay disparities for your officers and men? Is that not discrimination? After all, your officers are usually based away from Forward locations and it is your men who are facing the brunt?

Comparing an organization's hierarchy and the armed forces ranking system to the Hindu Caste system? Seriously?
I am pretty sure even in the Indian military there will be plenty of examples of sepoys that have become officers and in Indian firms labourers becoming managers.

 

[Hellfire]

Comparing an organization's hierarchy and the armed forces ranking system to the Hindu Caste system? Seriously?
I am pretty sure even in the Indian military there will be plenty of examples sepoys that have become officers and in Indian firms labourers becoming managers.

My Dear Sir.

It shall be quite productive to the context of the interaction. It shall keep the contention of 'discrimination' as the main thrust.

That was a simple analogy that twisting of anything done with an aim to improve/streamline a situation, is quite easy.

The contention of my post in seeking to quote the member is his allusion to Indian Constitution legalizing discrimination. That, sir, is a fallacy.

Cheers

Man, I used to think that you are rational and thinking person. Article 366 is just introduction of constitutional/legal terms SC/ST which will be used. Coming up with theory of it acknowledge not tell, it's for affirmative action for their welfare, It's good thing not bad etc. doesn't change the fact that it's there. If someone have to find out backward and outcaste castes and tribes in India then he/she can simple lookup the lists notified by GoI under constitutional article 341 & 342. I don't why it's hard to acknowledge the simple fact, for example if you tell me that your constitution discriminate based on religion than I will be fool to try to convince you otherwise as whatever the purpose the fact is it does.

Sir.

It shall be in the interest to keep the scope of discussion to the 'discrimination' that you aver to. By extension of the logic as put forth by you, I did seek your comments on the Quotas in education system in Pakistan for Scholarships. Would the contention hold?

Is any affirmative action necessarily a discrimination? If indeed it is, what are your views on the Representation of Women in Pakistani Legislatures and the quotas allocated to the same? Are they not discriminatory?

My contention remains. The intent behind the actions have to be accounted for. They are. You alluded to Constitution of India 'legalizing' discrimination. That, sir, is a fallacy.

I, sir, am rational and do take my time to reflect before I post. The aberration is in your assertion so far and the lengthy 'essay' was meant to inform the average poster here, that one has to be aware of the necessary information lest multiple quotes of little value are created.

I gave the rationale and the historical reasoning. May I request you to provide the evidence wherein the legalization of discrimination has been undertaken?

 

[Sugarcane]

What are your comments for the above? Shall we, taking your logic to this aspect, not conclude that there is, as is a wide perception held both within and outside of Pakistan, an inherent discrimination carried out against both merit and rest of the regions of Pakistan to favor the Punjabis?

And what are your comments on the undermentioned? What do you think is the need of the hour for GoP to deal with the issue?

I knew the last defense will be turning topic towards Pakistan. But you have wrong understanding about this topic, as parts of federal jobs are allocated based on population of provinces rest are open merit where other think that recruiter favor Punjabis. This impression right or wrong have nothing to do with constitution, so your attempt is futile because I didn't talk about practices or impression of different communities in India which will be never ending discussion.

Dear Sir. Not maintaining an official record does not make the issue go away. The only difference, as I have been oft found saying here, between India and Pakistan is that we are recognizing the problems we face and have the media activism wherein the problems are mainstreamed - be it rape, be it mental health (depression and suicide, a reportable data to WHO for India but Pakistan has no official data maintained) or be it the backwardness of socio-economically weaker sections of the society.

Dude, You are denying the bare fact. Rest of your post is just d!ck measuring contest which I am not interested in.

Let us further take your logic to the field of professions. The Higher Management gets much greater pay and perks than the worker in the same firm. Is that not discrimination? If to provide scope for opportunities under law for certain segment of society is discrimination, is this pay discrimination justified?

Let us extend it to your Armed Forces. Why do you have pay disparities for your officers and men? Is that not discrimination? After all, your officers are usually based away from Forward locations and it is your men who are facing the brunt?

That's Illogical, as in professions people can move up the ladder of management based on their capability and hard work. They get extra compensation for carrying out dangerous, difficult and critical tasks. Field is open for everyone as per rules. These privileges are earned not given for free.

My Dear Sir.

It shall be quite productive to the context of the interaction. It shall keep the contention of 'discrimination' as the main thrust.

That was a simple analogy that twisting of anything done with an aim to improve/streamline a situation, is quite easy.

The contention of my post in seeking to quote the member is his allusion to Indian Constitution legalizing discrimination. That, sir, is a fallacy.

Cheers




Sir.

It shall be in the interest to keep the scope of discussion to the 'discrimination' that you aver to. By extension of the logic as put forth by you, I did seek your comments on the Quotas in education system in Pakistan for Scholarships. Would the contention hold?

Is any affirmative action necessarily a discrimination? If indeed it is, what are your views on the Representation of Women in Pakistani Legislatures and the quotas allocated to the same? Are they not discriminatory?

My contention remains. The intent behind the actions have to be accounted for. They are. You alluded to Constitution of India 'legalizing' discrimination. That, sir, is a fallacy.

I, sir, am rational and do take my time to reflect before I post. The aberration is in your assertion so far and the lengthy 'essay' was meant to inform the average poster here, that one has to be aware of the necessary information lest multiple quotes of little value are created.

I gave the rationale and the historical reasoning. May I request you to provide the evidence wherein the legalization of discrimination has been undertaken?

Here is my Initial post,

Caste based discrimination is embedded in constitution of India. Calling it positive discrimination doesn't change the basic fact.


You are just running in circle. First you out rightly denied the existence, then started explaining difference between tell and acknowledge. Then you came up it's disadvantaged people not backward people theory, now it's about affirmative action are good. All this was unnecessary when my point wasn't it's good or bad but presence of it. And yes, any extra favor to select group of people may be called "affirmative action" for them but it's discrimination for rest of people that make it double edged sword, which can become harmful if not carefully implemented. So, this caste based "affirmative actions" are discrimination against other castes at same time as well, in principle same is true for any kind of special reservations.