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Govt plans to add 1,840 MW power in 2017.

The People opposed to coal power plants are guided by ignorant idiots. Almost every nation used coal heavily to industrialize themselves. It's only a problem when it comes to Bangladesh.
All the today's industrialized countries have started with coal-fired power plants which was a necessity for these countries when they were unable to invest in the high-cost other types of power plants. With only one coal-fired plant, BD produces only 2% of its electrciity from coal, whereas coal produces 39% of Indian power. China is more so. But, our people in and out of this Forum keeps on shouting over Rampal with all the abnormal and falsified assumptions.
 
Percentage wise it looks good but when you see the actual number 1.8 GW is damn low. It's not like we have surplus energy.

Importing power only can only for a short time. Be it from Nepal or Bhutan or India it has to go through India's soil. Now relation with India is all good and nice but who knows what will happen in the future? What if the relation goes bad and India stops importing power to BD or doesn't allow power supply to BD through it's land?

I'm not advocating for a bitter relation between BD and India but we have to keep in mind all possible scenarios.

And based on the possible scenarios, It's important we generate most of the electricity that we might require in the future.

Well power generation is always going to be a much more expensive industry in BD to accomodate in the levels of production in multi dozen and then 100+ of GW capacity.

You are seeing the land cost and environment issues already popping up at this early stage.

Large thermal stations and the coal yards required for their operation will be a bad long term idea for BD....the spare land simply is not there.

Certainly fill up what you have available (taking into account all factors appropriately), but going past the market balance would mean worse living conditions and environment for BD to hedge against a situation where you are going to be doomed anyway (antagonism with India) will destroy more long term than you produce through the externalities (of opportunity cost lost and the pollution/land use). You are best maintaining good relations with India and having a multi-stream and balanced approach to meeting your power deficit.

Capital investment in permanent large scale power is something BD has to be very careful with, given 1 dollar invested today means 100's of dollars of commitment later...thats how loans for them are secured. So this cash flow pyramid will divert from other sectors and there is opportunity cost that must be appreciated especially given root demand factors that are very lacking in BD to begin with (industrial training past RMG, human capital quality availability etc.)

It is not simple... "if we build more capacity, we can boost our consumption of power". Bangladesh is always going to be more demand pull-influenced rather than supply-push....given the land constraints....so its fine to go at 12% or whatever is possible for generation capacity growth year on year.....pushing on the accelerator too much would be foolhardy...much like pushing speed of a car to get somewhere faster when you ideally want to maximise the distance you can cover in one tank of fuel. That way you can wait for the world to come up with higher energy density power sourcese for mass power generation and also have enough money left over now to invest in essentially "free" opex power like rural renewable energy...which is the only feasible way to get massive electricity generated in BD without massive opportunity costs.

For example in Tamil Nadu, half our power generated now comes from renewable energy. BD can look how to do this when scaling up for time being. Pure coal expansion only will be bad cost for BD people and environment, I can tell you that right now. Yes there are politics being played regarding impact on the mangroves and such, but it (environmental, land cost) is not something that should be ignored time and again either.
 
Well power generation is always going to be a much more expensive industry in BD to accomodate in the levels of production in multi dozen and then 100+ of GW capacity.

You are seeing the land cost and environment issues already popping up at this early stage.

Large thermal stations and the coal yards required for their operation will be a bad long term idea for BD....the spare land simply is not there.

Certainly fill up what you have available (taking into account all factors appropriately), but going past the market balance would mean worse living conditions and environment for BD to hedge against a situation where you are going to be doomed anyway (antagonism with India) will destroy more long term than you produce through the externalities (of opportunity cost lost and the pollution/land use). You are best maintaining good relations with India and having a multi-stream and balanced approach to meeting your power deficit.

Capital investment in permanent large scale power is something BD has to be very careful with, given 1 dollar invested today means 100's of dollars of commitment later...thats how loans for them are secured. So this cash flow pyramid will divert from other sectors and there is opportunity cost that must be appreciated especially given root demand factors that are very lacking in BD to begin with (industrial training past RMG, human capital quality availability etc.)

It is not simple... "if we build more capacity, we can boost our consumption of power". Bangladesh is always going to be more demand pull-influenced rather than supply-push....given the land constraints....so its fine to go at 12% or whatever is possible for generation capacity growth year on year.....pushing on the accelerator too much would be foolhardy...much like pushing speed of a car to get somewhere faster when you ideally want to maximise the distance you can cover in one tank of fuel. That way you can wait for the world to come up with higher energy density power sourcese for mass power generation and also have enough money left over now to invest in essentially "free" opex power like rural renewable energy...which is the only feasible way to get massive electricity generated in BD without massive opportunity costs.

For example in Tamil Nadu, half our power generated now comes from renewable energy. BD can look how to do this when scaling up for time being. Pure coal expansion only will be bad cost for BD people and environment, I can tell you that right now. Yes there are politics being played regarding impact on the mangroves and such, but it (environmental, land cost) is not something that should be ignored time and again either.
Well written post. Brings up some interesting points too.

I'm a bit busy now. I'll get back to it when I've time. Sorry for the delay.
 
That's way too low. We should be adding 4-5 GWs per year if we want to industrialize our country fast.

For a country of 150 million only 15GW power generation is fucking pathetic. We need to multiply our capacity by several times..........and we have people who opposes power plants:hitwall: makes me want to break a break wall with my forehead.

12 growth per year? Are you still not satisfied?


But, our people in and out of this Forum keeps on shouting over Rampal with all the abnormal and falsified assumptions.

Rampal won't do any harm to Sundarban at all.I can't wait to see tanks march over the protesters.




Kira.
 
12 growth per year? Are you still not satisfied?

Its just a number. What matters more is the breakup of this increase into power sources and what the capex and opex cost cycles per power unit are for them in BD specifically....if anyone has that information. Then we can talk about whether this growth should continue as is or be changed in composition for more sustainable long term plan.

Rampal won't do any harm to Sundarban at all.I can't wait to see tanks march over the protesters.

If there are any problems, they can be solved by some novel ideas now such as jet engine powered fans to push the emissions far up into the sky so they do not settle and affect the immediate environment and more effective high alt dispersion is achieved.

I believe the idea is currently being tested at prototype stage in Delhi:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-38285567
 
If there are any problems, they can be solved by some novel ideas now such as jet engine powered fans to push the emissions far up into the sky so they do not settle and affect the immediate environment and more effective high alt dispersion is achieved.

I believe the idea is currently being tested at prototype stage in Delhi.

The power plant is like 14 km away from Sundarban and people are like "OMG,SUNDARBAN GONNA DIE! 90% OF FISH WILL CEASE TO EXIST! 8266 TIGERS WILL STARVE TO DEATH! HARAMBE'S FAMILY WON'T HAVE ANY OXYGEN TO BREATHE!"


BTW,I think the jet engine would require too much energy to be economical for this.




Kira.
 
The power plant is like 14 km away from Sundarban and people are like "OMG,SUNDARBAN GONNA DIE! 90% OF FISH WILL CEASE TO EXIST! 8266 TIGERS WILL STARVE TO DEATH! HARAMBE'S FAMILY WON'T HAVE ANY OXYGEN TO BREATHE!"


BTW,I think the jet engine would require too much energy to be economical for this.




Kira.

Its just a concept of where things can go if there is a long term issue.

Most people dont realise that general carbon-based pollution requires time to have an effect, during which you have time to correct and mitigate the effects.

Firstly you can create long enough smoke stacks as a pretty effective option for this in the first place (base level mitigation). You should never make projections using 100% of the emission for this reason but some fraction of it depending on the design of the stack and the yearly wind directions and patterns etc. Its basically a cheap CFD model that can be run in a few hours.

Jet engines actually would be pretty economical as % of energy used in the generating station (compared to say regular fan driven towers). Like I said its an option only if all the other options prove ineffective for this potential projected environmental problem in the first place. There will be time to address this stuff is what I am saying. Its not like a few months of emission from coal plant are immediately going to kill the sunderbans. Take the data of pH of water, leaf effects etc every few months and you can check quite quickly what the trend is (if any materialises) and whether it is concerning and should be addressed beyond steps in the powerplant flue/stack design in the first place.

BTW will the boiler, steam turbine and such for Rampal project come from BHEL India? If so you can get the cleanest option there too, they are licensed-produced systems from German companies like Siemens...so you will be extracting/converting the highest currently possible level of energy from the coal (i.e what they are calling clean coal these days).
 
The power plant is like 14 km away from Sundarban and people are like "OMG,SUNDARBAN GONNA DIE! 90% OF FISH WILL CEASE TO EXIST! 8266 TIGERS WILL STARVE TO DEATH! HARAMBE'S FAMILY WON'T HAVE ANY OXYGEN TO BREATHE!"


BTW,I think the jet engine would require too much energy to be economical for this.




Kira.

Don't know whether harambe's gonna die or how "8266" tigers gonna dissappear.This rampal shit is gonna accelerate the problem in sundarban.
 
Well power generation is always going to be a much more expensive industry in BD to accomodate in the levels of production in multi dozen and then 100+ of GW capacity.

You are seeing the land cost and environment issues already popping up at this early stage.
These environment issues pop up for every country. You can see in Bangladesh very few mount of power is produced using coal, compared to other countries..
Large thermal stations and the coal yards required for their operation will be a bad long term idea for BD....the spare land simply is not there.
Yeah...that's actually why we are building power plants in sensitive spots like Sundarbans. The land is not there and land acquisition is a very expensive process but same can be said for other countries like Singapore who produce more electricity than Bangladesh. How do they do it? Singapore is much smaller and much more densely populated than BD.

Certainly fill up what you have available (taking into account all factors appropriately), but going past the market balance would mean worse living conditions and environment for BD to hedge against a situation where you are going to be doomed anyway (antagonism with India) will destroy more long term than you produce through the externalities (of opportunity cost lost and the pollution/land use). You are best maintaining good relations with India and having a multi-stream and balanced approach to meeting your power deficit.
I'm always for a good relation with any country including India. But India is a country whcih is industrializing too. What if they need more electricity and can't afford to export to BD? All of a sudden BD's industries will be crushed. We can import power from India but we must produce most of what we require here. And like I said about environment conditions, we produce much less energy from coal than other countries. It's time we do our share of damage to environment.
Capital investment in permanent large scale power is something BD has to be very careful with, given 1 dollar invested today means 100's of dollars of commitment later...thats how loans for them are secured. So this cash flow pyramid will divert from other sectors and there is opportunity cost that must be appreciated especially given root demand factors that are very lacking in BD to begin with (industrial training past RMG, human capital quality availability etc.)
Agreed on all accounts.
It is not simple... "if we build more capacity, we can boost our consumption of power". Bangladesh is always going to be more demand pull-influenced rather than supply-push....given the land constraints....so its fine to go at 12% or whatever is possible for generation capacity growth year on year.....pushing on the accelerator too much would be foolhardy...much like pushing speed of a car to get somewhere faster when you ideally want to maximise the distance you can cover in one tank of fuel. That way you can wait for the world to come up with higher energy density power sourcese for mass power generation and also have enough money left over now to invest in essentially "free" opex power like rural renewable energy...which is the only feasible way to get massive electricity generated in BD without massive opportunity costs.

For example in Tamil Nadu, half our power generated now comes from renewable energy. BD can look how to do this when scaling up for time being. Pure coal expansion only will be bad cost for BD people and environment, I can tell you that right now. Yes there are politics being played regarding impact on the mangroves and such, but it (environmental, land cost) is not something that should be ignored time and again either.
I agree with most of it. But I believe right now the amount of electricity we produce is way less than what we need to produce. People are unemployed and mills are shut down due to power shortage. If we have energy surplus then we can export it to other countries. In time more energy dense power sources will emerge. Off course solar power will come a long way as well. So we will have to keep an eye on how these things evolve and act accordingly. Govt have plans to increase the threshold of renewable energy of our total energy. Which is good but if we do it by not building other sorts of power plants then it is nothing but a foolish move.


Anyway sorry for taking time to reply. Good day/Night(depending on where you currently are.)
 
These environment issues pop up for every country. You can see in Bangladesh very few mount of power is produced using coal, compared to other countries..

Yes well coal has big land requirements since you can't pump it. You have to acquire it, transport it and then store enough buffer of it at both the port and the power station. I have seen a number of them in TN (port coalyards), they are quite unsightly and take up much land.

Land is at a premium in BD. So you can't rely on only coal for future electricity expansion considering just this reason.

Yeah...that's actually why we are building power plants in sensitive spots like Sundarbans. The land is not there and land acquisition is a very expensive process but same can be said for other countries like Singapore who produce more electricity than Bangladesh. How do they do it? Singapore is much smaller and much more densely populated than BD.

I lived in Singapore. They had enough money to physically reclaim land and islands for their power stations. This was a natural adjunct they used when they had massive contracts with the Dutch and Japanese for expanding their port, oil terminal islands, container islands, mooring points etc....so they were able to do this in sustained fashion (land reclamation) at economies of scale and just add power gen to these existing projects where much momentum had been built up in the 70s and 80s.

So land was the key issue here given the power plants have since been upgraded fully to gas fired only (to reduce congestion in the vicinity) from previous mix of both gas and fuel oil I believe....so the restricting factor was clearly land.

if Bangladesh can reclaim land around its coastal areas with the relevant countries that have the expertise and can throw in package deal (funding etc), then you can definitely have an avenue for this...given labour is not even a problem (in fact Singapore used/uses a lot of BD + Indian labour for its land projects since late 80s) However this requires much investment density and top notch planning...but I think in coming years, BD can explore it.

I'm always for a good relation with any country including India. But India is a country whcih is industrializing too. What if they need more electricity and can't afford to export to BD? All of a sudden BD's industries will be crushed. We can import power from India but we must produce most of what we require here. And like I said about environment conditions, we produce much less energy from coal than other countries. It's time we do our share of damage to environment.

I'm talking more about projects BD can enter to as JV with Indian power companies or even create investment vehicles to buy portions of such companies and effectively lease/buy powerplants located in India where there is more land, and create new plants there for large/exclusive BD use....and also invest in transmission to BD as needed. You do not need to wait for there to be excess capacity in India or for India itself to create it (because you are correct India would design its power policy for its own needs and requirements first). Thus BD can be proactive, approach Indian govt for clearing any legislation that may hinder it now (not sure on the details but I think power sector is 100% open to FDI) and effectively put such FDI into India, Nepal, Bhutan etc (for stakes in thermal, nuclear and hydro projects as required) and get cheap, assured power for future growth. If concern is the jobs that are foregone, trust me....there are much more job producing sectors in light manufacturing etc that will be created by having cheaper power in BD compare to direct jobs of having the power gen in BD itself (but using up lot of capital investment and all the trade-off discussed for it). BD can use its experience in RMG clusters for more such sectors that are basically electricity starved right now and expand above the 2000, 3000 dollar per capita GDP (nominal) in the coming years.

BD needs this go-getter attitude. S. Korea when they were dirt poor for example secured loan from the UK for their shipbuilding when the guy that went to the bank there taking out wallet and showing a currency note and showing the ancient ships that were on it.

Their first offshore oil rig projects in middle east, they transported material to it un-insured, took a gamble...all because they simply did not want to fork out money they didnt have to established players back then.....and now they are the biggest established player in so many industries today.

I agree with most of it. But I believe right now the amount of electricity we produce is way less than what we need to produce. People are unemployed and mills are shut down due to power shortage. If we have energy surplus then we can export it to other countries. In time more energy dense power sources will emerge. Off course solar power will come a long way as well. So we will have to keep an eye on how these things evolve and act accordingly. Govt have plans to increase the threshold of renewable energy of our total energy. Which is good but if we do it by not building other sorts of power plants then it is nothing but a foolish move.

Yah, I think BD should look to create a large energy based sovereign fund (and get AIIB, WB, ADB, Chinese bank finance only....avoid IMF) to finance at very low interest power projects at all levels (from large capital projects to small micro production at rural homes). Right now there seems to be too many things running cocurrently, each with different interest loads and financing. Nothing wrong with running this kind of thing as well (variety is the spice of life and hedges well), but I think there should be one dedicated funding plan for the real bulking up....and it cant just be white paper theory stuff....but create an actual energy based finance company exclusive to managing the fund with competent people running it (so it will probably have to be some kind of private sector components). Anyways I am engineer at heart, not much into company finance stuff....but I think BD can get its act together for energy. If there is a good balance of funding and govt oversight for such a thing, the projects will naturally flow at better resolution regarding whatever pace BD economy demands from it....rather than have the usual developing world lag/catch up cycles.
 
02:43 PM, January 28, 2017 / LAST MODIFIED: 02:57 PM, January 28, 2017
PM again blasts anti-Rampal power plant campaigners


pm-hasina_22.jpg

Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina on January 28, 2017 once again comes down heavily on the quarter campaigning against the Rampal power plant, saying that they never visited the power plant site to ascertain its impact on the Sundarbans. Star file photo

BSS, Chittagong

Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina once again came down heavily on the quarter campaigning against the Rampal power plant, saying that they never visited the power plant site to ascertain its impact on the Sundarbans.

Defending the construction of the power plant, she also said the Rampal power plant is being set up in Rampal, not in the Sundarbans.

Also READ: Police pounce on campaigners

"The plant is being built around 14 kilometers away from the outer boundary of the Sundarbans and about 70 kilometers away from the world heritage site. So there is no possibility of causing any damage to the Sundarbans," she said.

READ more: It's collision, not torture

The prime minister was addressing the inaugural ceremony of the 57th National Convention of the Institution of Engineers, Bangladesh (IEB) at its Chittagong centre this noon.

rampal_project.jpg

IEB President Engineer Kabir Ahmed Bhuiyan and General Secretary Engineer Mohammad Abdus Sabur spoke on the occasion.
Engineer Sadeque Mohammad Chowdhury, chairman of IEB Centre, Chittagong, delivered the welcome address, while Prabir Sen, general secretary of IEB, Chittagong centre, gave vote of thanks.

The premier said when her government is working for the country and the people, the quarter at that time is raising objection about Rampal power plant from the capital and carrying out campaign across the world against the plant.

"They are conducting campaign by sitting on the capital...they never visited Rampal in their life," she said.

rampal_power_plantwb.jpg

The Rampal power plant project. Star file photo

In this connection, the prime minister said a barge with 1000 MT coal sank near the Sundarbans recently. "Whether the environmentalists did any examination about the impact of capsizing of the barge... they should have visited the site to verify its impact?" she questioned.

Sheikh Hasina said her government had taken all kinds of measures to protect the environment of the Sundarbans and the surrounding areas as well as to protect the habitat and biodiversity of that region.

Explaining the preventive measures, she said coal will be transported to power plant site from deep sea in covered barges, while covered and low-sound engines will be used in the barges and therefore "there is no possibility of environment pollution".

Referring to the construction of Barapukuria coal-fired power plant in Dinajpur, Sheikh Hasina said her government had started setting up coal-fired power plants in Barapukuria in 2000.

She said there was no negative impact on the densely populated and green area of Barapukuria though two sub-critical plants were constructed there. The land of the area has become more fertile and more rice is being produced there, she said.
 

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