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Forget the trade war, China's economy has other big problems

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Nov 4, 2018
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Hong Kong (CNN Business)China is riding out the trade war so far but its economic troubles run deep and could escalate rapidly if US tariffs really start to bite.

Beijing is already wrestling with other problems that the trade war could exacerbate. China's economy is now growing at its slowest pace since the global financial crisis. It's laden down with debt and facing concerns about a real estate bubble and weakening currency.

Despite the Trump administration's new tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods, exports are still growing strongly, up 16% in October. But that could change in the coming months if tariffs rise to 25% from 10% at the end of December, as the US has threatened, adding to China's growing list of problems.

Runaway debt

The Chinese economy expanded rapidly in the years after the global financial crisis thanks to repeated debt binges.

"China's growth has been highly credit intensive," said Gerard Burg, Sydney-based senior economist at National Australia Bank. The total amount of debt in the Chinese financial system is now several times the size of the entire economy.
181109173355-20181109-china-soared-debts-gfx-exlarge-169.jpg


Some of this money has gone into building bridges, road and other infrastructure. But a lot has ended up in less productive parts of the economy, such as big, inefficient state-run companies. The more dynamic private sector hasn't benefited as much.
Late last year, Beijing stepped up its efforts to rein in the high levels of debt, which is one of the main reasons the economy is now losing momentum.

Some analysts are skeptical about the Chinese government's commitment to cleaning up its financial system, especially as the slowdown deepens and the trade war intensifies.
Many provincial governments and state-run firms would struggle to stay above water without regular injections of cheap credit, according to Kevin Lai, an economist at investment bank Daiwa Capital Markets.
Cutting off their credit lines "would have very negative repercussions, like social unrest, layoffs and bankruptcies," Lai said. That's a scenario Beijing wants to avoid.

Plunging currency

The government is also trying to fend off pressure on China's yuan, which has sunk more than 9% against the dollar since January. It's been hurt by concerns about the health of the Chinese economy and rate hikes by the US Federal Reserve that have pushed up the greenback.

The weaker yuan has boosted China's huge export industry, as it makes Chinese products cheaper on global markets. But slumps in the yuan have caused headaches in the past.
Amid sharp declines in 2015 and 2016, vast sums of money flooded out of China as investors bet the yuan would keep falling. The crisis forced Beijing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to prop up its currency.
181026092049-01-china-yuan-file-2018-exlarge-169.jpg


The yuan has sunk more than 9% against the dollar since January.
A rapidly falling yuan could become a vicious cycle, according to Manu Bhaskaran, the founder of Singapore-based research firm Centennial Asia.

"There could be a huge capital outflow and that could feed on itself," he said.
Beijing appears to have again started dipping into its massive war chest of foreign currencies in recent months to slow the yuan's declines, according to research firm Capital Economics.

Real estate bubble

Another threat lurks in the country's overheated property market.
Prices have more than doubled in the past decade, according to research firm Gavekal, stoked by low interest rates and a shortage of housing in major cities.
But the real estate market now "appears to be showing some cracks," said Aidan Yao, a senior emerging markets economist at AXA Investment Managers. He pointed to some instances of big property developers slashing prices in the face of weakening demand.
181109091023-01-beijing-property-file-restricted-exlarge-169.jpg


Chinese officials have struggled to rein in skyrocketing prices in cities like Beijing.
"It is only a matter of time before the market cools," Yao added.
The real estate industry has been one of the few bright spots for China's economy this year but turn into a burden if it slumps, according to analysts at research firm Fitch Solutions.
"This will add another layer of pressure," they wrote in a note to clients last month.

Chronic problems

Chinese officials have turned to tax cuts, infrastructure spending and looser monetary policy as they seek to prop up growth. But some experts think these are the wrong prescriptions for the country's economic woes.

"China's problems are chronic, not acute," said Derek Scissors, a China expert at the American Enterprise Institute, a Washington-based think tank.

In his view, the major issues, such as China's rapidly aging population and uncompetitive business environment, are being largely ignored.

The Chinese government has relaxed its decades-old one-child policy and tried to increase competition with plans to give foreign companies greater access in areas like banking and automobiles.

But those moves have come too late or don't go far enough, raising serious concerns about China's long-term economic future, according to Scissors.
"Old, indebted economies don't grow," he said

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/09/economy/china-economy-risks/index.html
 
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Why do idiots post (at Western media) china's debt in yuan and gdp in dollars, Here are the figures...

https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/china

Washington unfunded liabilities is over 120T USD. And the states have 6T in unfunded pensions.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are two mortgage financing institutions that are wholly owned by the US Federal government. These two government-sponsored agencies were judged to be independent and their debts did not count as being owed by the nation — they each had their own independent credit rating and raised funds on the market outside of the Treasury’s mechanisms.
 
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New China Manufacturing Data Adds to Mounting Worries About Economy

An official gauge of activity in China’s manufacturing sector slipped to a more than two-year low in October, as worries about an escalating trade dispute with the U.S. compounded concerns about a slowdown in the Chinese economy.

The official manufacturing purchasing managers index dropped to 50.2 in October from 50.8 in September, according to data released by the National Bureau of Statistics Wednesday.

Though readings above 50 still indicate an expansion in activity, the fall was more precipitous than economists projected, with the October reading at the lowest since July 2016.

“Overall, the data confirms that economic fundamentals are weakening. I’m afraid the softness will remain for a long period of time,” said Yang Weixiao, an economist at Founder Securities.

Indicators and other economic data in recent weeks have shown that the Chinese economy is slipping faster than many officials expected, spurring the government to move to support growth and talk up the stock markets.

Asian markets, buoyed by a rebound on U.S. exchanges overnight, appeared to shrug off the fall in factory activity, with shares in Shanghai falling initially and then rising by midmorning Wednesday.

A weeklong national holiday and rising uncertainties about conditions outside of China were among the reasons for the slower expansion in factory activity, said Zhao Qinghe, an analyst with the government’s statistics bureau, in a statement accompanying the data release.

Mr. Yang and other economists pointed to signs of further gloom in the latest indicators. A subindex measuring production decreased to 52.0 from 53.0 in September, while the new orders index fell to 50.8 from 52.0. The new export subindex–an indicator of external demand for Chinese goods–slipped to 46.9 from 48.0.

Subindexes measuring operations of small- and medium-size manufacturing firms showed a contraction in activity in October from September. That was likely the result of regulatory rules released in July aimed at curb rising financial risks from nonbank lenders and that basically cut off the primary funding source for private firms, said Mr. Yang.

An official gauge of business activity outside factories, also released Wednesday, pointed to fresh weakness in the service sector, which has been more buoyant. China’s official nonmanufacturing PMI dropped to a 14-month low of 53.9 in October from 54.9 in September.

Beijing in recent months has stepped up its efforts to boost economic growth by jump-starting infrastructure projects and releasing more funds for banks to lend. Several regulators have increased credit support to relieve private firms’ financing difficulties. The authorities have also pledged reductions in tax and fee burdens.

The government’s efforts to stabilize economic growth and bolster expectations should start to show effects late this year, said Zhang Liqun, an analyst with the China Federation of Logistics and Purchasing, according to a statement on the group’s website. The industry group releases the PMIs with the statistics bureau.

Mr. Yang of Founder Securities said banks have enough money but the cash still isn’t being disbursed to small firms, which are seen as riskier. “If the system doesn’t repair itself, it’s hard to imagine things could improve anytime soon,” he said.
Source: Dow Jones
 
Summary:
The trade war is not going as planned, all begging in China for a quick deal the Trump regime could sell as a pyrrhic victory failed and even naive voters and investors are waking up as U.S. companies suffer and more production and life sustaining jobs are moved out of the U.S. instead of back while investment into China is peaking, so lets return to the old tried and trusted collapse "predictions" and "hidden" bubble spins and fabrications.
 
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Hong Kong (CNN Business)China is riding out the trade war so far but its economic troubles run deep and could escalate rapidly if US tariffs really start to bite.

Beijing is already wrestling with other problems that the trade war could exacerbate. China's economy is now growing at its slowest pace since the global financial crisis. It's laden down with debt and facing concerns about a real estate bubble and weakening currency.

Despite the Trump administration's new tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods, exports are still growing strongly, up 16% in October. But that could change in the coming months if tariffs rise to 25% from 10% at the end of December, as the US has threatened, adding to China's growing list of problems.

Runaway debt

The Chinese economy expanded rapidly in the years after the global financial crisis thanks to repeated debt binges.

"China's growth has been highly credit intensive," said Gerard Burg, Sydney-based senior economist at National Australia Bank. The total amount of debt in the Chinese financial system is now several times the size of the entire economy.
181109173355-20181109-china-soared-debts-gfx-exlarge-169.jpg


Some of this money has gone into building bridges, road and other infrastructure. But a lot has ended up in less productive parts of the economy, such as big, inefficient state-run companies. The more dynamic private sector hasn't benefited as much.
Late last year, Beijing stepped up its efforts to rein in the high levels of debt, which is one of the main reasons the economy is now losing momentum.

Some analysts are skeptical about the Chinese government's commitment to cleaning up its financial system, especially as the slowdown deepens and the trade war intensifies.
Many provincial governments and state-run firms would struggle to stay above water without regular injections of cheap credit, according to Kevin Lai, an economist at investment bank Daiwa Capital Markets.
Cutting off their credit lines "would have very negative repercussions, like social unrest, layoffs and bankruptcies," Lai said. That's a scenario Beijing wants to avoid.

Plunging currency

The government is also trying to fend off pressure on China's yuan, which has sunk more than 9% against the dollar since January. It's been hurt by concerns about the health of the Chinese economy and rate hikes by the US Federal Reserve that have pushed up the greenback.

The weaker yuan has boosted China's huge export industry, as it makes Chinese products cheaper on global markets. But slumps in the yuan have caused headaches in the past.
Amid sharp declines in 2015 and 2016, vast sums of money flooded out of China as investors bet the yuan would keep falling. The crisis forced Beijing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to prop up its currency.
181026092049-01-china-yuan-file-2018-exlarge-169.jpg


The yuan has sunk more than 9% against the dollar since January.
A rapidly falling yuan could become a vicious cycle, according to Manu Bhaskaran, the founder of Singapore-based research firm Centennial Asia.

"There could be a huge capital outflow and that could feed on itself," he said.
Beijing appears to have again started dipping into its massive war chest of foreign currencies in recent months to slow the yuan's declines, according to research firm Capital Economics.

Real estate bubble

Another threat lurks in the country's overheated property market.
Prices have more than doubled in the past decade, according to research firm Gavekal, stoked by low interest rates and a shortage of housing in major cities.
But the real estate market now "appears to be showing some cracks," said Aidan Yao, a senior emerging markets economist at AXA Investment Managers. He pointed to some instances of big property developers slashing prices in the face of weakening demand.
181109091023-01-beijing-property-file-restricted-exlarge-169.jpg


Chinese officials have struggled to rein in skyrocketing prices in cities like Beijing.
"It is only a matter of time before the market cools," Yao added.
The real estate industry has been one of the few bright spots for China's economy this year but turn into a burden if it slumps, according to analysts at research firm Fitch Solutions.
"This will add another layer of pressure," they wrote in a note to clients last month.

Chronic problems

Chinese officials have turned to tax cuts, infrastructure spending and looser monetary policy as they seek to prop up growth. But some experts think these are the wrong prescriptions for the country's economic woes.

"China's problems are chronic, not acute," said Derek Scissors, a China expert at the American Enterprise Institute, a Washington-based think tank.

In his view, the major issues, such as China's rapidly aging population and uncompetitive business environment, are being largely ignored.

The Chinese government has relaxed its decades-old one-child policy and tried to increase competition with plans to give foreign companies greater access in areas like banking and automobiles.

But those moves have come too late or don't go far enough, raising serious concerns about China's long-term economic future, according to Scissors.
"Old, indebted economies don't grow," he said

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/09/economy/china-economy-risks/index.html
China's debt is just like a son borrowing from his parents to buy a house.
 
Summary:
The trade war is not going as planned, all begging in China for a quick deal the Trump regime could sell as a pyrrhic victory failed and even naive voters and investors are waking up as U.S. companies suffer and more production and life sustaining jobs are moved out of the U.S. instead of back while investment into China is peaking, so lets return to the old tried and trusted collapse "predictions" and "hidden" bubble spins and fabrications.

Lol! The US stock market is near record highs. Consumer confidence is also at an 18 year high (
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-consumer-confidence-surged-in-october-to-18-year-high-1540909611 )

Unemployment at record lows
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u...for-almost-all-groups-of-americans-2018-10-05

Meanwhile China is going through an economic malaise ( https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/12/reu...-drop-in-7-years-as-growth-engine-stalls.html ) and people are fleeIng from investing in the Shanghai Composite so much that is at 4 year’s lows!!! Probably moving their money to US markets.

https://m.nasdaq.com/article/china-shares-fall-on-weak-sentiment-shanghai-at-near-4-yr-low-20181018-0003

We are doing fine. You guys on the other hand...
 
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Lol! The US stock market is near record highs. Consumer confidence is also at an 18 year high (
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-consumer-confidence-surged-in-october-to-18-year-high-1540909611 )

Unemployment at record lows
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u...for-almost-all-groups-of-americans-2018-10-05

We are doing fine. You guys on the other hand...

Lol. Delusional eyewash. You certainly want to believe the U.S. is doing fine. Reality on the other hand doesn't care about your ignorance and denial...

Investment into the U.S. has completely stagnated and can barely keep up with inflation, while it keeps growing off the roof for China. Period. Screaming about Dow points because you believe your buzzword headlines somehow contradict what I said or even indicate strength of the U.S. economy or vice versa just shows how utterly clueless you are.

Consumer confidence index? Are you kidding me? The last high was the dot-com bubble and the next spurt lead to the Great Depression. They should have taught you what the word "overconfidence" means. That applies not just to this index. Manufacturers are shutting down production lines and moving one plant after another out of the U.S. as consequence of the trade war, no debt spending frencies can cover that up, no Twitter promises to bring back jobs will pay the bills. U.S. household savings are tanking again because of this attitude while the U.S. media is celebrating a blip in consumer spending.

Take that unemployment bottomline narrative to the drooling retards still cheering for Trump who will fall for it. U.S. labour participation rates remain abysmal low, U.S. long term unemployment essentially unchanged and as high as ever and U.S. job creation and U.S. wage growth dropped to an abysmal low rate. And that's despite the shale bubble boost that's just about to pop. The jobs that remain are full of worker on leave and halfway axed due to the failed trade war dragging down orders and hiking up costs to produce in the U.S.. Your glass is half full after you have slashed off the top and stirred up some foam.
 
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Lol. Delusional eyewash. You certainly want to believe the U.S. is doing fine. Reality on the other hand doesn't care about your ignorance and denial...

Investment into the U.S. has completely stagnated and can barely keep up with inflation, while it keeps growing off the roof for China. Period. Screaming about Dow points because you believe your buzzword headlines somehow contradict what I said or even indicate strength of the U.S. economy or vice versa just shows how utterly clueless you are.

Consumer confidence index? Are you kidding me? The last high was the dot-com bubble and the next spurt lead to the Great Depression. They should have taught you what the word "overconfidence" means. That applies not just to this index. Manufacturers are shutting down production lines and moving one plant after another out of the U.S. as consequence of the trade war, no debt spending frencies can cover that up, no Twitter promises to bring back jobs will pay the bills. U.S. household savings are tanking again because of this attitude while the U.S. media is celebrating a blip in consumer spending.

Take that unemployment bottomline narrative to the drooling retards still cheering for Trump who will fall for it. U.S. labour participation rates remain abysmal low, U.S. long term unemployment essentially unchanged and as high as ever and U.S. job creation and U.S. wage growth dropped to an abysmal low rate. And that's despite the shale bubble boost that's just about to pop. The jobs that remain are full of worker on leave and halfway axed due to the failed trade war dragging down orders and hiking up costs to produce in the U.S.. Your glass is half full after you have slashed off the top and stirred up some foam.

Lol! Start listing the deluge of companies pulling out of the US or you should stop being delusional. A few here and there means nothing. There is no flood..anyways there are companies moving out of China too...but unlike you I can see it is hardly a catastrophe to worry about.

Don’t worry about us...we are doing fine.

Before Trump’s tariffis China handily beat the US at the movie box office for the first quarter of the year (the first time EVER) but after Trump announced tariffs suddenly you guys started going down. Let’s see who comes out on top for the year...and that should say a lot about how things are really going for the “average man on the street”.
 
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Lol! Start listing the deluge of companies pulling out of the US or you should stop being delusional. A few here and there means nothing. There is no flood..anyways there are companies moving out of China too...but unlike you I can see it is hardly a catastrophe to worry about.

Don’t worry about us...we are doing fine.

Before Trump’s tariffis China handily beat the US at the movie box office for the first quarter of the year (the first time EVER) but after Trump announced tariffs suddenly you guys started going down. Let’s see who comes out on top for the year...and that should say a lot about how things are really goIng for the “average man on the street”.

Lol big mouth no substance, just flushing meaningless and superficial buzzword propaganda headlines and meaningless anecdotes in a gallop, but quick to ask for spoonfeeding after dodging the whole deconstruction of the disingenious and delusional nonsense you just tried to sell.

And no the U.S. in its current state can absolutely not deal with a "few" dozen more Ford, GM and BMW plants being shut down for a quarter of the year "here and there" or longer. And that was before the orders went down due to the trade war and reports of billions of economic losses. What do you even think the excuse for this trade war is in first place and where the blind support for this false promise to recover the U.S. industry comes? Some moral highground? Nationalism? No, the desperate reality of a long and still stagnant economy, which already means losing competitive edge, where a third of the labour force is defacto unemployed and just waiting to collapse, while some whitewashed and obfuscating statistics are celebrated by media propaganda to raise hope. Your delusions are outlandish.

Again. It's the U.S.A. feverously sending delegations and begging China to get a deal done for a quickwin but getting rejected, while U.S. propaganda touts about strength of the U.S. position every time they fail and already predicting the next time China might agree. Not the reverse.

You are just another completely delusional and clueless fanatic trying to defend the indefensible and celebrate failure without a clue what you are even trying to be dishonest about.
 
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And no the U.S. in its current state can absolutely not deal with a "few" dozen more Ford, GM and BMW plants being shut down for a quarter of the year "here and there" or longer. And that was before the orders went down due to the trade war and reports of billions of economic losses. What do you even think the excuse for this trade war is in first place and where the blind support for this false promise to recover the U.S. industry comes? Some moral highground? Nationalism? No, the desperate reality of a long and still stagnant economy, which already means losing competitive edge, where a third of the labour force is defacto unemployed and just waiting to collapse, while some whitewashed and obfuscating statistics are celebrated by media propaganda to raise hope. Your delusions are outlandish.

Again. It's the U.S.A. feverously sending delegations and begging China to get a deal done for a quickwin but getting rejected, while U.S. propaganda touts about strength of the U.S. position every time they fail and already predicting the next time China might agree. Not the reverse.

You are just another completely delusional and clueless fanatic trying to defend the indefensible and celebrate failure without a clue what you are even trying to be dishonest about.

Which BMW plant are you talking about..name it please..otherwise YOU are delusional. You are probably thinking of their Oxford plant...which is in the UK not the US.

Which Ford plant are you talking about...and don't tell me the Transit Van one as that van is laughably out of date (1965) and I have never seen one on the road. I think it was used as a government Postal truck.
 
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Which BMW plant are you talking about..name it please..otherwise YOU are delusional.

Which Ford plant are you talking about...and don't tell me the Transit Van one as that van is laughably out of date (1965) and I have never seen one on the road.
Im going to spoonfed you a bit more on the basic facts of the topic you are cluelessly trying to discuss, after you respond to the points you dodged in the previous posts, with the usual endless tedious "CANT SEE! CANT HEAR! DOENST COUNT! BUT I MY OPINIONS ARE TRUTH!" routine you trolls like so much.
 

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