FA-50 and JF-17 are the finalists for Malaysian Air Force's Deal: Korea Times

[maverick1977]

Can't believe there are people so gullible as to believe this 1300 km as the radius for the JF-17 without external fuel tanks. It's a JOKE.

dont be cocky, be informative

 

[MirageBlue]

dont be cocky, be informative

Do you know what combat radius mission profile needs to include? A typical CAP or interception sortie will include the following segments:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable

These things have to be kept in mind for a general CAP or interception mission. BARCAP could have it even longer since you'll be defending a strike package that is returning.

With all these things, do you honestly believe that a JF-17 carrying ~2350 kgs of fuel internally with a RD-33 engine with Specific Fuel Consumption of 75 kg fuel/kN-force-per-hour, will be able to fly 1300 kms + spend 5 mins on CAP station + 1300 km back ?? This is basic arithmetic!! Or do you guys not even know how to do such basic calculations??

75 kg fuel / kN force per hour means that it takes 75 kg of fuel to produce 1 kN thrust per hour.

That means to produce 50 kN dry thrust for 1 hour, the RD-33 / RD-93 will use 75*50 = 3750 kg of fuel.

Here, I have not even accounted for 1 minute of Afterburner use where the fuel consumed will be 180 kg fuel/kN force per hour. i.e. double the amount of fuel consumed.

Actually, within <40 minutes, the JF-17's entire internal fuel will be consumed, producing 50 kN. In reality it'll be done even earlier, since afterburner is used to take-off and climb to altitude.

Simple calculations, but no Pakistani member wants to even try it because it'll burst this ridiculous myth.

 

[HRK]

Does it cater to any combat reserve?

yes for 15 or 20 minutes reserve ....

 

[maverick1977]

Do you know what combat radius mission profile needs to include? A typical CAP or interception sortie will include the following segments:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable

These things have to be kept in mind for a general CAP or interception mission. BARCAP could have it even longer since you'll be defending a strike package that is returning.

With all these things, do you honestly believe that a JF-17 carrying ~2350 kgs of fuel internally with a RD-33 engine with Specific Fuel Consumption of 75 kg fuel/kN-force-per-hour, will be able to fly 1300 kms + spend 5 mins on CAP station + 1300 km back ?? This is basic arithmetic!! Or do you guys not even know how to do such basic calculations??

75 kg fuel / kN force per hour means that it takes 75 kg of fuel to produce 1 kN thrust per hour.

That means to produce 50 kN dry thrust for 1 hour, the RD-33 / RD-93 will use 75*50 = 3750 kg of fuel.

Here, I have not even accounted for 1 minute of Afterburner use where the fuel consumed will be 180 kg fuel/kN force per hour. i.e. double the amount of fuel consumed.

Actually, within <40 minutes, the JF-17's entire internal fuel will be consumed, producing 50 kN. In reality it'll be done even earlier, since afterburner is used to take-off and climb to altitude.

Simple calculations, but no Pakistani member wants to even try it because it'll burst this ridiculous myth.

get off your high horse. most pakiatanis do not know that kinda details.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Tornado23]

Do you know what combat radius mission profile needs to include? A typical CAP or interception sortie will include the following segments:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable

These things have to be kept in mind for a general CAP or interception mission. BARCAP could have it even longer since you'll be defending a strike package that is returning.

With all these things, do you honestly believe that a JF-17 carrying ~2350 kgs of fuel internally with a RD-33 engine with Specific Fuel Consumption of 75 kg fuel/kN-force-per-hour, will be able to fly 1300 kms + spend 5 mins on CAP station + 1300 km back ?? This is basic arithmetic!! Or do you guys not even know how to do such basic calculations??

75 kg fuel / kN force per hour means that it takes 75 kg of fuel to produce 1 kN thrust per hour.

That means to produce 50 kN dry thrust for 1 hour, the RD-33 / RD-93 will use 75*50 = 3750 kg of fuel.

Here, I have not even accounted for 1 minute of Afterburner use where the fuel consumed will be 180 kg fuel/kN force per hour. i.e. double the amount of fuel consumed.

Actually, within
Simple calculations, but no Pakistani member wants to even try it because it'll burst this ridiculous myth.

Either you just ignorant or blind, to not see 1300km range is achieved via drop tanks and air to air refueling. It's been said many times.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Either you just ignorant or blind, to not see 1300km range is achieved via drop tanks and air to air refueling. It's been said many times.

I think It is because someone has suggested that 1400km could be achieved without any external fuel tank.

1300Km Radius is a great range of JF17 without external fuel tanks, where F16s is around 850Kms...

 

[khanasifm]

I find it hard to believe J-10 a2a same configuration is ~1800 km. Where did you get it from?

Online posts on this or other forum

So I had forgotten about this so

J10 is 2950 ferry range almost same as Jf17

J10 carry 4500 kg internal fuel vs ~2300+ kg for jf perhaps the difference is With heavier load

 

[MirageBlue]

get off your high horse. most pakiatanis do not know that kinda details.
Thanks for sharing.

What high horse? This moronic 1300 km combat radius figure has been floating around for ages without ANYONE on PDF bothering to even do some basic arithmetic calculations to see if it's even possible with the physics we know. And then someone even suggests whether it's possible without drop tanks and on internal fuel alone!

Keep in mind, even with drop tanks, this figure seems made up. Drop tanks consume 1/3 of their entire fuel just overcoming the extra drag that they add. You can google it up to verify it if you don't believe me.

Light fighters like JF-17, Tejas, KAI FA-50, etc. are not designed to fly 1300 kms away, engage in combat for 5 minutes and then fly back 1300 kms to land with fuel reserves of a few hundred kgs.

 

[MastanKhan]

Do you know what combat radius mission profile needs to include? A typical CAP or interception sortie will include the following segments:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable

These things have to be kept in mind for a general CAP or interception mission. BARCAP could have it even longer since you'll be defending a strike package that is returning.

With all these things, do you honestly believe that a JF-17 carrying ~2350 kgs of fuel internally with a RD-33 engine with Specific Fuel Consumption of 75 kg fuel/kN-force-per-hour, will be able to fly 1300 kms + spend 5 mins on CAP station + 1300 km back ?? This is basic arithmetic!! Or do you guys not even know how to do such basic calculations??

75 kg fuel / kN force per hour means that it takes 75 kg of fuel to produce 1 kN thrust per hour.

That means to produce 50 kN dry thrust for 1 hour, the RD-33 / RD-93 will use 75*50 = 3750 kg of fuel.

Here, I have not even accounted for 1 minute of Afterburner use where the fuel consumed will be 180 kg fuel/kN force per hour. i.e. double the amount of fuel consumed.

Actually, within <40 minutes, the JF-17's entire internal fuel will be consumed, producing 50 kN. In reality it'll be done even earlier, since afterburner is used to take-off and climb to altitude.

Simple calculations, but no Pakistani member wants to even try it because it'll burst this ridiculous myth.

Jf17's combat radius might be around 450-500 miles.

 

[jamal18]

Jf17's combat radius might be around 450500 miles.

But only when there is a Solar eclipse...

 

[m52k85]

Do you know what combat radius mission profile needs to include? A typical CAP or interception sortie will include the following segments:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable

These things have to be kept in mind for a general CAP or interception mission. BARCAP could have it even longer since you'll be defending a strike package that is returning.

With all these things, do you honestly believe that a JF-17 carrying ~2350 kgs of fuel internally with a RD-33 engine with Specific Fuel Consumption of 75 kg fuel/kN-force-per-hour, will be able to fly 1300 kms + spend 5 mins on CAP station + 1300 km back ?? This is basic arithmetic!! Or do you guys not even know how to do such basic calculations??

75 kg fuel / kN force per hour means that it takes 75 kg of fuel to produce 1 kN thrust per hour.

That means to produce 50 kN dry thrust for 1 hour, the RD-33 / RD-93 will use 75*50 = 3750 kg of fuel.

Here, I have not even accounted for 1 minute of Afterburner use where the fuel consumed will be 180 kg fuel/kN force per hour. i.e. double the amount of fuel consumed.

Actually, within <40 minutes, the JF-17's entire internal fuel will be consumed, producing 50 kN. In reality it'll be done even earlier, since afterburner is used to take-off and climb to altitude.

Simple calculations, but no Pakistani member wants to even try it because it'll burst this ridiculous myth.

Is the 1300 km achievable with 3 external tanks according to this line of calculation?

A side point, I think after-burner take-offs are reserved for Interception; where time is critical, or deep-strike, where ordanace load is maxed out. AAMs load-out could be a thousand kilos lighter than a bomb load out.

 

[Akatosh]

Mods should close this thread as Korea times has completely deleted the article from their website.

 

[Basel]

Can't add more to that but I have a question. What if PAF would have pitched some AESA solution with Block-II?

Very possible because there were news that PAF first finalize Block-2 AESA before finalizing Block-3 radar.

 

[MirageBlue]

Jf17's combat radius might be around 450-500 miles.

Could be..but then again, it is not a FIXED NUMBER.

It all depends on what is the Mission Profile..HI-HI-HI mission profile leads to a different combat radius number than HI-LO-HI or HI-LO-LO, since fuel burn and drag is different at different altitudes.

It also depends on the payload being carried, their total drag index and whether one expects to be refueled mid-air.

There are so many factors that one needs to consider, but people here on PDF make it sound like it's as easy to come up with, as a car's mileage in perfect conditions around a race track..

Is the 1300 km achievable with 3 external tanks according to this line of calculation?

A side point, I think after-burner take-offs are reserved for Interception; where time is critical, or deep-strike, where ordanace load is maxed out. AAMs load-out could be a thousand kilos lighter than a bomb load out.

Afterburner is almost always used to take off. Most of these fighters don't have the thrust to take off on simply dry thrust.

If you expect to encounter opposition, you need to keep reserves for at least 1-2 minutes of Afterburner use. It is a question of Mission Planning.

 

[SQ8]

Could be..but then again, it is not a FIXED NUMBER.

It all depends on what is the Mission Profile..HI-HI-HI mission profile leads to a different combat radius number than HI-LO-HI or HI-LO-LO, since fuel burn and drag is different at different altitudes.

It also depends on the payload being carried, their total drag index and whether one expects to be refueled mid-air.

There are so many factors that one needs to consider, but people here on PDF make it sound like it's as easy to come up with, as a car's mileage in perfect conditions around a race track..


Afterburner is almost always used to take off. Most of these fighters don't have the thrust to take off on simply dry thrust.

If you expect to encounter opposition, you need to keep reserves for at least 1-2 minutes of Afterburner use. It is a question of Mission Planning.

Disagree with the second part since that also depends upon configuration - but yes, more often than not AB is used for takeoff.

Hi-lo-lo-hi the thunder is good for 300 miles on internal alone - add centerline to get 50 and wing tanks to get 120 more - but that too is VERY subjective.