European secularism a bad fit for India

[Saheli]

Din't have to be. The governance model were difficult to change considering political freedom was new, Social development happens independent of political though and that did not have to imitate anybody, if only social leaders were more grounded in Indian culture and in their understanding of India.

Nope. They were what they were, and I am okay with it.

A legitimate reason cannot condone an illegitimate path unless there were no alternatives available and if there was stiff opposition. Tehre was wide acceptance on reforms and there were alternatives which Gandhi offered.. Jinnah or Churchill too chose to serve their own narrow constituency and are heroes among their people too.
Ambedkar complaint against gandhi was he moved too slow. He din't want evolution, he wanted a Revolution and with that comes all associated ills.

It was the social ill he was fighting against and it was legitimate. Glad he did that.

There were multiple organizations which was involved in creating this social conscience. Bhakti movement in maharashtra started on this very premise. Varkari sampraday was all inclusive. Ravidas started similar effort in Punjab. Othere leaders were Jyothiba Phule, Shashi Bandopadhyay, VR Shinde, In Kerala there was Sri. Narayana Guru, in Bengal there was Brahmo Samaj, Prarthana Samaj, Arya Samaj, all working for the same purpose.
Gandhiji himself started Harijan Sevak sangh. Most of them were hindu elites.
Its only Mayawati and her kind who thinks Dalit empowerment started with Ambedkar and ends with her.
Poverty gets eliminated by establishing equal opportunities, like they did in rest of the world where there was caste. Not by institutionalizing caste as we have done.

Those were like drop in the ocean of bigotry. Poverty does not get eliminated by just establishing equal opportunities when one section starts with an unfair advantage.

How can you compare a Christian school to a hindu temple ? Hindu temple is to promote Hindusim. A School is to provide EQUAL oppertunity for ALL. If such an institution practices discrimination, then what is the message ? That is twisted logic.

A Christian school is an enterprise of the Christian church paid and provided for by it. So they have a right to employ who they want. Just as RKM employs Hindu teachers. A school is to provide equal education for all. The primary objective of a school is not to provide employment.

Yes, upper caste suffered it too under British and Mughal rule.

Yes they did and so did the lower castes. It was a double whammy for the lower castes though. Both Islamic, British, and caste oppression.

How many people have ancestral land or wealth going back generations ? Land reforms was undertaken in most parts of India. Not even 0.1% of people today have anything remotely resembling ancestral wealth.
Yes many have encashed social capital. The way forward was to evolve society so that everybody had that social capital.

A huge section has ancestral land. 70% of Indian population has agricultural lands. Much of it ancestral or under land reforms which were just partially performed.

No that was not the way forward since cronyism and nepotism practiced by upper castes would never have made space for anyone else.

Every caste in India kept to themselves and considered themselves superior and others inferior. But yes, let us talk about equal opportunity.

Your idea of equal opportunity sounds like joke to me.

Yes, various castes did have their say with the exceptions of dalits. But during british rule even Dalits had their say. IT is absurd to say the bits left the society undisturbed ............ they disturbed it more than the muslims every could.

That is nonsense. Just 1% of the lower caste population was in any govt job when their population was 20% of India.

 

[Saheli]

You mean the children and grand children and great grand children of upper caste deserve punishment

They are living off the fat of what was done by their ancestors, so why not. Also you seem to be comfortable with the idea of looters keep the loot.

 

[SanjeevaniButi]

Nope. They were what they were, and I am okay with it.

I am discussing ideas and you are telling me how you personally feel about it. Why not keep it at the level of discussing ideas ?

It was the social ill he was fighting against and it was legitimate. Glad he did that.

No one is against fighting social ills. Everyone is glad he did it, just not happy about his means and approach for fighting it.

Those were like drop in the ocean of bigotry. Poverty does not get eliminated by just establishing equal opportunities when one section starts with an unfair advantage.

Gandhi was but one man. Ever drop counts since such activities have ripple effect in changing social attitude and thinking.

There is ALWAYS going to be unfair advantage in real life. Either the other person is going to be smarter, taller, better looking, richer, stronger, better family connections, better social skills, better social connections etc.

Communists want every one to start from the same start point That does not work in real life. Its a theoretical concept.

A Christian school is an enterprise of the Christian church paid and provided for by it. So they have a right to employ who they want. Just as RKM employs Hindu teachers. A school is to provide equal education for all. The primary objective of a school is not to provide employment.

No they do not. Discrimination on the basis of religion is an offence punishable by law.

Christian money does not make it acceptable to practice christian bigotry. It is still immoral, unethical and ILLEGAL. In any part of the world. What is RKM ? in any case, if they practice bigotry, then its wrong.

Yes they did and so did the lower castes. It was a double whammy for the lower castes though. Both Islamic, British, and caste oppression.

True. Hence the need for correction action. Not two wrongs to make a right.

A huge section has ancestral land. 70% of Indian population has agricultural lands. Much of it ancestral or under land reforms which were just partially performed.

Now this is the part I agree with you. The british introduced titled land rights which went to all castes except the dalits since they were outside hindu societies for most parts. What Ambedkar should have really fought for was Land reforms that corrected this imbalance. It would have restored balance to society in 20-40 years. Instead he chose reservation in education which was nothing but reverse discrimination. That is where he failed his community and India.

No that was not the way forward since cronyism and nepotism practiced by upper castes would never have made space for anyone else.

LOL. So lower castes and dalits do not practice cronyism and nepotism ?

That is nonsense. Just 1% of the lower caste population was in any govt job when their population was 20% of India.

Agreed. So are you now saying the British practised caste system and untouchability ?

They are living off the fat of what was done by their ancestors, so why not. Also you seem to be comfortable with the idea of looters keep the loot.

We all live of the sins or good deeds of our past. Or of our ancestors. That is why Hindus have ancestor worship.

The past has their own dynamics and we really do not know what they were. It is rather foolish to sit judgement on them since they are not here to defend their stand.

 

[Saheli]

I am discussing ideas and you are telling me how you personally feel about it. Why not keep it at the level of discussing ideas ?

We are discussing ideas and according to me the approach adopted was right.

No one is against fighting social ills. Everyone is glad he did it, just not happy about his means and approach for fighting it.

Now you are discussing your unhappiness with it while objecting to my gladness over the same subject, see? That was the least destructive path he could have chosen and he chose well.

Gandhi was but one man. Ever drop counts since such activities have ripple effect in changing social attitude and thinking.
There is ALWAYS going to be unfair advantage in real life. Either the other person is going to be smarter, taller, better looking, richer, stronger, better family connections, better social skills, better social connections etc.
Communists want every one to start from the same start point That does not work in real life. Its a theoretical concept.

Such reformers have happened throughout India's history but untouchability persists to date and until a few decades ago was a major issue. Just waiting for evolution is not going to happen. No one here has patience to wait for another 1000 years of exploitation. So the correct approach was legislative, affirmative action, as well as consensual process involving the caste leaders. A multipronged approch rather than as you want just waiting for conscience of the upper castes.

Oh, there is always going to be unfair advantage in real life? If you are happy with socially imposed disadvantages, then why should anyone cry tears over any disadvantage the upper caste face. Deal with this disadvantage too with the same philosophy.

I do not agree with communism and I understand real life too. In real life the Dalits had no obligation to discard any advantage coming their way in terms of reservation or proportional representation. How is that for real life?

No they do not. Discrimination on the basis of religion is an offence punishable by law.
Christian money does not make it acceptable to practice christian bigotry. It is still immoral, unethical and ILLEGAL. In any part of the world. What is RKM ? in any case, if they practice bigotry, then its wrong.

It is a private enterprise of a religious institution and they are within their rights to employ who they want. It is not bigotry to employ people of their own faiths within their own institutions. There are numerous such organizations of all faiths. They are designated minority run institutions and work within the ambit of Indian law. If you find it discriminatory file a case against them.

Ramkrishna Mission.

True. Hence the need for correction action. Not two wrongs to make a right.

That is Marxist bull. Affirmative action is no wrong. Even a punitive action would not have been immoral here. Go and re-write Mahabharata where Krishna realizes he has no right to punish Ashawathama because two wrongs do not make a right.

Now this is the part I agree with you. The british introduced titled land rights which went to all castes except the dalits since they were outside hindu societies for most parts. What Ambedkar should have really fought for was Land reforms that corrected this imbalance. It would have restored balance to society in 20-40 years. Instead he chose reservation in education which was nothing but reverse discrimination. That is where he failed his community and India.

I disagree. Land reforms were anyway carried out by Indira Gandhi too though unsuccessfully.

LOL. So lower castes and dalits do not practice cronyism and nepotism ?

They could, but that is in the realm of future possibilities. We are talking about current structure and rebalancing an imbalanced society..

Agreed. So are you now saying the British practised caste system and untouchability ?

Nope British did not, but even to employ people there needs to be a certain degree of education which the deprived castes did not have. Guess why?

We all live of the sins or good deeds of our past. Or of our ancestors. That is why Hindus have ancestor worship.

Yup. We all do.

The past has their own dynamics and we really do not know what they were. It is rather foolish to sit judgement on them since they are not here to defend their stand

We know what the dynamics were. The people who framed our constitution knew what the dynamics were. We judge and we ought to judge, to know right from wrong.

 

[SanjeevaniButi]

We are discussing ideas and according to me the approach adopted was right.
Now you are discussing your unhappiness with it while objecting to my gladness over the same subject, see? That was the least destructive path he could have chosen and he chose well.

I am neither happy or unhappy about it. I am simply discussing it with known facts. 68 years hence, how can you continue to call it least destructive path ? Jinnah chose well too by that same logic.

Such reformers have happened throughout India's history but untouchability persists to date and until a few decades ago was a major issue. Just waiting for evolution is not going to happen. No one here has patience to wait for another 1000 years of exploitation. So the correct approach was legislative, affirmative action, as well as consensual process involving the caste leaders. A multipronged approch rather than as you want just waiting for conscience of the upper castes.

Until a few decade ago we did not have political freedom to implement what is right. How disingenuous of you to ignore that fact while being prepared to blame society for not correcting it.

Neither was there enough political stability or peace to correct the corruption that crept into the varna system.

They same claim for multipronged approach would have more credibility when well off dalits support 5 day working for maids along with PF and job security. I am yet to see anyone take a enlightened stand on such matters.

Oh, there is always going to be unfair advantage in real life? If you are happy with socially imposed disadvantages, then why should anyone cry tears over any disadvantage the upper caste face. Deal with this disadvantage too with the same philosophy.

My being happy or unhappy has noting to do with realities of life. A physically impaired or mentally challenged person also has disadvantage over others. A women is more disadvantaged than men.

We all deal with these realities. However you cannot have lopsided laws that give additional advantages to women or physically impaired over others to counter this imbalance.

I do not agree with communism and I understand real life too. In real life the Dalits had no obligation to discard any advantage coming their way in terms of reservation or proportional representation. How is that for real life?

By that same logic, other casts should also have no problem in exploiting dalits when opportunity presents itself. You ok with that too ?

It is a private enterprise of a religious institution and they are within their rights to employ who they want. It is not bigotry to employ people of their own faiths within their own institutions. There are numerous such organizations of all faiths. They are designated minority run institutions and work within the ambit of Indian law. If you find it discriminatory file a case against them.

No they are not. It continues to be immoral, unethical and illegal.

That is Marxist bull. Affirmative action is no wrong. Even a punitive action would not have been immoral here. Go and re-write Mahabharata where Krishna realizes he has no right to punish Ashawathama because two wrongs do not make a right.

There is a difference between Affirmative action and reverse discrimination by diluting meritocracy. Just by calling something Affirmative action, does not make it one. Affirmative action should be positive in nature, not negative. It should not release negative energy into society as Gurmurthy said.

I disagree. Land reforms were anyway carried out by Indira Gandhi too though unsuccessfully.

Everyone did it to varying success. More can be done and needs to be done. But it was done.

They could, but that is in the realm of future possibilities. We are talking about current structure and rebalancing an imbalanced society..

They even do it today. Look into Mayawati or Dravidian politics.

Nope British did not, but even to employ people there needs to be a certain degree of education which the deprived castes did not have. Guess why?

Are you saying that the British school did not allow dalits ? what aout British run colleges ? Most were run by british anyway.

We know what the dynamics were. The people who framed our constitution knew what the dynamics were. We judge and we ought to judge, to know right from wrong.

We only know current dynamics, the way the past leaders know their present. Not the past. The past was all assumptions and guesses based on present and "history" churned out by british propaganda machinery.

 

[Saheli]

I am neither happy or unhappy about it. I am simply discussing it with known facts. 68 years hence, how can you continue to call it least destructive path ? Jinnah chose well too by that same logic.

Similar choices with different set of people with different circumstances need not lead to similar outcomes. Point also stands the Ambedkar made a different choice than Jinnah and he had a just cause if he would have pursued a different path too. Glad he did not.

Until a few decade ago we did not have political freedom to implement what is right. How disingenuous of you to ignore that fact while being prepared to blame society for not correcting it.
Neither was there enough political stability or peace to correct the corruption that crept into the varna system.
They same claim for multipronged approach would have more credibility when well off dalits support 5 day working for maids along with PF and job security. I am yet to see anyone take a enlightened stand on such matters.

You are the one being disingenuous. Hindu kingdoms existed all along even during the British rule and before too. They had the political freedom to implement just rules. The society had the choice to behave justly with all its people. No one forced them to behave badly. Even when political freedom was won and people finally did the right thing, you are arguing against that right thing.

5 day working for maids with PF and job security? LOL. Why just Dalits? Everyone should be encouraged to take such an approach. Only that would make them even more unemployed because very few would be able to afford them.

My being happy or unhappy has noting to do with realities of life. A physically impaired or mentally challenged person also has disadvantage over others. A women is more disadvantaged than men.
We all deal with these realities. However you cannot have lopsided laws that give additional advantages to women or physically impaired over others to counter this imbalance.

We are not talking of natural born advantages or disadvantages here for you to sneak that specious argument in. We are talking about socially imposed disabilities and correction of it.

By that same logic, other casts should also have no problem in exploiting dalits when opportunity presents itself. You ok with that too ?

The upper castes were the culprits here and it is their exploitative tendencies which is being sought to be curbed here. The Dalits are the not perpetrating injustice but getting what is their due. If the other castes want to continue their exploitative behavior, then I am sorry that would no longer be politically or economically feasible for them.

No they are not. It continues to be immoral, unethical and illegal.

It is not illegal and if it was by now someone would have filed a PIL against it and got this addressed.

There is a difference between Affirmative action and reverse discrimination by diluting meritocracy. Just by calling something Affirmative action, does not make it one. Affirmative action should be positive in nature, not negative. It should not release negative energy into society as Gurmurthy said.

It was affirmative action and there was no dilution of meritocracy. While the bar is low for entrance to the education system for the lower castes, the pass out examination is the same for everyone. So unless they get the required marks no one is giving them a degree any different from other. Gurumurthy's reference was not just limited to Dalits. He ambit was rather all castes. If the upper castes had not started playing caste politics, then no one else need have gotten into it. So blame the upper castes for the negative energy in the society in the first place.

Also Gurumurthy, Dr. Swamy, Dr. Vaidyanathan all agree with reservation for Dalit castes.

They even do it today. Look into Mayawati or Dravidian politics.

What did Mayawati do? She gave the maximum number of seats to the Brahmins. It was her clarion call "Hathi nahi Ganesh hai, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh hai" She was also far better administrator than Mullah Yadav and his son. Also she just followed on the footsteps of the upper caste politicians. They were the guiding light. I do not know if Karunanidi is from Dalit caste. He is a communist and his politics had ethnic chavunism.

Are you saying that the British school did not allow dalits ? what aout British run colleges ? Most were run by british anyway.

How many schools and colleges were there by the way? Do you think they were sufficient for the population? Do you think the Dalits were in a situation to attend the schools and colleges with the Upper Castes? What was untouchability all about then. Seems a fiction according to your narrative.

We only know current dynamics, the way the past leaders know their present. Not the past. The past was all assumptions and guesses based on present and "history" churned out by british propaganda machinery.

No we are not so ill informed about our past.

I think we better end this discussion. We do not agree on this subject.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

They are living off the fat of what was done by their ancestors, so why not.

What about the millions of so called upper caste who live on the pavements? Or in otherwise abject poverty?

 

[Saheli]

What about the millions of so called upper caste who live on the pavements? Or in otherwise abject poverty?

For every million upper caste living in poverty there are 10 million lower caste living in poverty. Abject poverty at that. Plus do you think all lower castes are working for the govt or living on govt doles?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

For every million upper caste living in poverty there are 10 million lower caste living in poverty. Abject poverty at that. Plus do you think all lower castes are working for the govt or living on govt doles?

Does not answer my question. My question is ...and I repeat - what about those who live in abject poverty and still are born into some 'upper caste'?

Answer to your question - No.

 

[Saheli]

Does not answer my question. My question is ...and I repeat - what about those who live in abject poverty and still are born into some 'upper caste'?

Answer to your question - No.

What about them? There is poverty everywhere in the world. Affirmative action is only meant for socially imposed disabilities. Were the upper castes poor because the society behaved badly with them? Was it imposed on them through discriminatory tendencies?

If your question is what is to be done for the poor of our country, no matter of which caste or religion, then the answer is the economic pie of the country has to grow for all to get a share in it. Until then for poor students there is already scholarships available and more should be provided and no one would have an argument against that.

 

[DingDong]

European Secularism is proving to be bad for Europe. Secularism is an alien concept for India, it is not in sync with our culture and way of life. We must abandon it for Greater Good.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

What about them? There is poverty everywhere in the world. Affirmative action is only meant for socially imposed disabilities. Were the upper castes poor because the society behaved badly with them? Was it imposed on them through discriminatory tendencies?

If your question is what is to be done for the poor of our country, no matter of which caste or religion, then the answer is the economic pie of the country has to grow for all to get a share in it. Until then for poor students there is already scholarships available and more should be provided and no one would have an argument against that.

So you are indirectly saying the primary criteria is economic vulnerability. Not caste. My point exactly. Also anyone who is poor is discriminated. Regardless of everything else.

Ok, now tell me, what about those who belong to very affluent households but are lucky enough to be born into a 'lower caste' background? They are also eligible to get quotas in educational institutions. What do you have to say about them?

 

[Saheli]

So you are indirectly saying the primary criteria is economic vulnerability. Not caste. My point exactly.

Ok, now tell me, what about those who belong to very affluent households but are lucky enough to be born into a 'lower caste' background? They are also eligible to get quotas in educational institutions. What do you have to say about them?

No the primary criteria is not economic vulnerability. Reservations are not made because of that. Scholarships are different from reservations. There is a difference between both.

Apart from SC/ST other castes getting reservation was politics. SC/ST were the only discriminated section for centuries.

Reservations were meant for a set term and not for perpetuity. It should not be extended to the affluent section of any caste. If it were left to me I would cap it at 2 generations per family of SC/ST, beyond that they get into the normal general category regardless of their economic status.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

If it were left to me I would cap it at 2 generations per family of SC/ST, beyond that they get into the normal general category regardless of their economic status.

That sounds fair enough to me. Thanks.

 

[zhongdafeng]

I struggled through the posts. There are many ideas I don't understand. From your discussion I could clearly sense the difference between Idians and Chinese. You are basically Western races who concerned so much about "God" , the other world, and ultimate meaning of life. Generally speaking, Eastern Asian thoughts are not so deep, so profound as the Western thoughts. We tend to take it more lightly. In our vague thoughts, we think, whatever one believes in, either God or Buddha or any other Deity, he or she should believe in Goodness, that is, being good to others. And that's enough for a Chinese, the only basic principle. Generally we are "foolishly" happy in THIS world, unaware of its end, untouched by the suffering or the esctacy of the other world.