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Each of the Russian choppers bidding for Indians contract is unique. Will

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Alligator, son of Black Shark | Russia & India Report

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A total of three Russian helicopters at once are taking part in India’s tenders to supply assault combat helicopters: the firepower support machines Mi-28N (the Night Hunter) from Mil and Ka-52 (the Alligator) from Kamov, as well as the lightweight multi-purpose Ka-226T, also from Kamov. Whereas the first two are competing to be included on New Delhi’s shortlist for procurement of 22 assault helicopters, the 226’s bid is part of India’s Defence Ministry’s tender for 197 reconnaissance and observation helicopters.

“All countries in the world today want to purchase advanced, reliable, and very expensive military equipment,” said Rosoboronexport Deputy General Director Alexander Mikheev. “That’s why they announce tenders where potential customers can pick the best machines on the most favourable terms. We do, indeed, offer our partners the best value for money combat machines.”

Each of the Russian choppers that is bidding for the Indian contracts is unique in its own way. But they include a helicopter that is truly one-of-a-kind and ahead of its time and that, despite all the difficulties it went through during development and commissioning, as is often the case with breakthrough weaponry, has finally been adopted by the Russian Army. Now it has a tremendous chance to become a star on international arms markets. It is the Ka-52 Alligator, son of the Ka-50 Black Shark. Not sure how a shark could have given birth to a crocodile? Here is the story…

The Black Shark’s history began back in the 1970s. As early as December 1976, the USSR Council of Ministers instructed engineers to develop a brand new combat helicopter to replace the Mi-24, which by the mid-1970s had garnered a number of rather negative reviews following combat missions in various hot spots. To minimise the risk of failure, the project was assigned to two design bureau, Mikhail Mil’s and Nikolai Kamov’s. By 1986, the first Mi-28 and Ka-50, designed by the late Mark Vainberg and Sergei Mikheev, disciples of and successors to the two prominent engineers, had been developed. Many test flights and numerous commissioning boards later, the Ka-50 Black Shark was selected and commissioned by the Army in 1995 (by Decree of the President of the Russian Federation No. 883 of 25 August 1995.) The Shark project cost the federal budget more than a billion dollars. Yet the Ministry of Defence did not get a chance to take delivery of these helicopters: Throughout the 1990s, the federal budget had next to nothing to pay for defence equipment.

This was not, however, the only obstacle to adoption of the unique machine by combat troops. Some Air Force representatives flatly rejected the very idea of the Ka-50, designed to be flown by a single person, combining the functions of pilot, navigator, and operator of all of its combat systems, including guided anti-tank missiles, non-guided missiles, and an automatic rapid-fire cannon. Despite what the Kamov pilots demonstrated, it was insisted that no military pilot could be expected to be a Jack-of-all-trades, while keeping an eye on the enemy and watching the horizon to avoid crashing into a tree or a mountain when flying at low altitude.

They remained unmoved by the counterarguments that, if fighter jet pilots managed to do it all even at supersonic speeds, helicopter pilots would be able to do it too, because their speeds are much lower, especially since the Ka-50 was equipped with an automatic horizon tracking and obstacle avoidance system. In any case, there was no money to launch serial production of the Black Shark (a nickname the helicopter received after starring in a feature movie.) The crisis of the late 1990s – early 2000s made the machine unaffordable.

Nevertheless, the Ka-50 became a star of international air shows, where Kamov test pilots performed aerobatic wonders and some military officials showed off the new machine as proof of their frenetic activity to strengthen the country’s defences. In 1998, Kamov took part in an international tender to supply helicopters to Turkey’s Air Force (but its NATO allies, the Americans, pressured the Turks into choosing the Apache over the Black Shark.) Then, fed up with the talk about a single pilot not being able to fly the combat chopper, the Kamov engineers rolled up their sleeves and started work on a two-seater version of the Ka-50 – the Ka-52 (Alligator.) Working from the Black Shark’s strengths, they created its “son”. And Defence Ministry brass revived their chorus about “unique machines that are ahead of their time,” but still without putting any money where their mouths were.

Simultaneously, Mil design bureau engineers started refining their Mi-28N by making it an all weather and 24/7 machine, like the Ka-50 and the Ka-52. The Mi-28N became a competitor of the Black Shark and the Alligator.
In December 2003, the then Commander of the Russian Air Force, General Vladimir Mikhailov, decided that “the Mi-28N would become the mainstay combat helicopter of the nation’s Air Force”. He explained that “whereas all helicopter units would receive the Mi-28N, the Kamov machines would be only sent to units that carry out special missions”.

The late Mark Vainberg, designer of the Mi-28N, once replied to this author’s question about which helicopter, the Mi-28 or the Ka-50, was better: “Which eye is more important to you, left or right?”, he replied, going on to explain: “Comparing the serial-production Ka-50 and Mi-28 doesn’t make any sense. They are designed for different combat missions. Back in the day, the Mi-28 lost out to the Ka-50 because of a number of unresolved technical issues. While the Ka-50 and Ka-52 are, indeed, suited for all kinds of special operation and air mission control, the Mi-28 is second to none for general combat missions and fire support.”

“Over recent years, engineers have upgraded our new Mi-28N machine to world-class level. What’s more, the Mi-28N has no peers. This chopper can engage the enemy at an altitude of five metres or more, while remaining invulnerable (the hull can endure a direct hit from an American M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon and the windshield withstands 12.7 mm bullets.) The helicopter is fitted with standardised Russian-made equipment and is relatively inexpensive to manufacture. The Defence Ministry plans to procure around a hundred of these machines for the Army in 2011.

Yet the Ka-52 Alligators, which boast a number of very big advantages over other choppers, will also join the ranks.


“This helicopter is ideal for working mountainous and urban areas and wherever there is little room for manoeuvre,” said 1st Class Test Pilot, Colonel Alexander Papai. “Unlike the Mi-24 or Mi-28, the Black Shark has no tail rotor, its main rotor is shorter, and it’s more manoeuverable and more powerful. It can make a U-turn without slowing down and can fly sideways. It’s equipped, among other things, with automatic detectors of target radar emissions from the ground, eight-kilometre range supersonic missiles (three times the Mi-28 missile range), and very high-precision onboard cannons. And, of course, the Ka-52 is an all-weather machine, a deal-maker in the mountains.”

At the May Victory Parade in Moscow, the Mi-28N Night Hunter and the Ka-52 Alligator, as well as the Ka-50 Black Shark, flew over central Moscow, over Red Square together, in a single combat formation. This suggests that the Russian Army’s front-line Air Force units will need all kinds of helicopter. And it is up to the Indian Army to decide what it needs. At least, as helicopter pilots say, there are machines that are ahead of their time and that pose a challenge to pilots not unlike the way beautiful women pose a challenge to men – will they be up to it or not.
 
Ka-52 Alligator is a very powerful attack helicopter, much better than Mi-28N. It can better compete with AH-64D Apache Longbow, but in temrs of sensors and systems Longbow III is still better.

Ka-52
KA+52+ALLIGATOR.2.jpg
 
A total of three Russian helicopters at once are taking part in India’s tenders to supply assault combat helicopters: the firepower support machines Mi-28N (the Night Hunter) from Mil and Ka-52 (the Alligator) from Kamov, as well as the lightweight multi-purpose Ka-226T, also from Kamov.

According to the reports of the trials, only the Mi 28 and the Apache was fielded, so the Ka 52 is not in the competition anymore and since when is the Ka 226 an assault combat helicopter?
 
According to the reports of the trials, only the Mi 28 and the Apache was fielded, so the Ka 52 is not in the competition anymore and since when is the Ka 226 an assault combat helicopter?

I think none of the Russian choppers came for trials. Ka-226T is competing against Eurocopter Fennec and others for light chopper tender.
 
Ka-52 Alligator is a very powerful attack helicopter, much better than Mi-28N. It can better compete with AH-64D Apache Longbow, but in temrs of sensors and systems Longbow III is still better.

Ka-52
KA+52+ALLIGATOR.2.jpg
Let's be honest if we are talking purely about technical specs and not about geopolitics/CISMO/LSA etc the Longbow would win hands down, it is dripping with state of the art tech coupled with tank-like protection. I do hope the Apache wins as the Block III they are offering IAF is second to none and, coupled with the LCH, will easily overwhelm ANYTHING her neighbours can field. + I hope the number increases from 22 to 60+ although there are rumors this is more than likely given the way the MOD procures new weapon systems.

+ I believe if the order increases to 60-70 units it will make India the 2nd largest operator behind US similar to the C-17. All these purchases are eventually going to leas to even better future political gains, Indo-US relations are still very new.
 
Let's be honest if we are talking purely about technical specs and not about geopolitics/CISMO/LSA etc the Longbow would win hands down, it is dripping with state of the art tech coupled with tank-like protection. I do hope the Apache wins as the Block III they are offering IAF is second to none and, coupled with the LCH, will easily overwhelm ANYTHING her neighbours can field. + I hope the number increases from 22 to 60+ although there are rumors this is more than likely given the way the MOD procures new weapon systems.

+ I believe if the order increases to 60-70 units it will make India the 2nd largest operator behind US similar to the C-17. All these purchases are eventually going to leas to even better future political gains, Indo-US relations are still very new.

I mentioned Longbow is still better than Ka-52 in terms of sensors, networking and others but Ka-52 is a powerful chopper as well, better than Mi-28N we earlier heard competing with AH-64D. But still Apache wins.
 
I think none of the Russian choppers came for trials. Ka-226T is competing against Eurocopter Fennec and others for light chopper tender.

Yeah still not sure if they attended, but the reports were about Mi 28 and Mi 26, not about the Kamov. Yes, that's what I meant, because the article said the 226 would be combat helicopter too.


+ I believe if the order increases to 60-70 units it will make India the 2nd largest operator behind US similar to the C-17. All these purchases are eventually going to leas to even better future political gains, Indo-US relations are still very new.

No because there are countries that have even more of them and personally I would be against an increase to such high numbers, because we need it only as an addition to LCH! Apache should win, no doubt about that, but the aim must be to add techs and weapons that LCH don't have, while LCH will become the "lower end" choice in numbers, but with sufficient fire power in the anti tank and fire support roles.
 
Each of the Russian choppers bidding for Indians contract is unique
Well good to hear this, but truth is Russian helicopter Industry has not progressed from Cold war. They use the same designs from cold war era and make changes. Mi 28 is no doubt a good chopper but its behind Apache. Other choppers of Russian origin are way behind their western counterparts. Fennec is the best choppers in that light helicopter deal.

I really don't understand why IA cancelled the contract for 197 choppers in the first place. Earlier also eurocopter won and now again they are the winner. If we would have signed the deal last time, the might have been delivered to IA by now.
 
No because there are countries that have even more of them and personally I would be against an increase to such high numbers, because we need it only as an addition to LCH! Apache should win, no doubt about that, but the aim must be to add techs and weapons that LCH don't have, while LCH will become the "lower end" choice in numbers, but with sufficient fire power in the anti tank and fire support roles.

Do you think I wouldn't have reaserched this?? With 60-70 units India WOULD be the 2nd largest operator in the world: the US army has 750+, then it is UK ~ 60 units, Isreal ~45 etc

Boeing AH-64 Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also the Apache is a heavy attack helo whist the LCH is what it says on the tin- a lightweight attack helo so there is a need for the Apache and I believe in larger numbers than 22, which is more than likely. I think the Apache and LCH with data linkage will be a formidable combo!! Look out!
 
^^^
I think with IA aviation corps getting more support from MOD and even more money is allocated this time, even IA might also go for Apache AH-64D block II because it is really an impressive machine. If IA will go for Apache, then i am sure it will be a big number.

Right now IA has ordered 76 WSI Dhruv + 114 LCH and with this number IA will become the largest operator of attack helicopters in Asia. (I read this in an article).

I will be happy if IA will go for Apache, although they can also go for Mi28 as it is cheaper with cost only 13 million euro except spares, services and all. But IA should opt for some heavy attack choppersor IAF should increase the number because 22 is too less for a country like India.
 
Rostvertol Readies Upgraded Mi-26 for India

Russia is hoping upgrades to its Mi-26 heavy-lift helicopter that are now undergoing flight trials will help secure an Indian contract now out for competition.

The Mi-26T2 is up against Boeing’s CH-47F Chinook in the effort to supply helicopters to the Indian air force. The order is expected to be for 15 rotorcraft.

The Mi-26T2 incorporates improvements based on the operational experience of the previous Mi-26 variants, as well as the new equipment, according to officials from Rostvertol. The Mi-26T2 prototype is equipped with a new glass cockpit that was revealed for the first time in 2005 at the Moscow air show. It features five multifunctional liquid crystal displays, two PS-7 control boxes and duplicate analogue instruments.

The navigation system includes a dual Navstar/Glonass system, inertial navigation and Doppler velocity sensor. The designers say this system will enable the helicopter to operate all over the globe and give it the opportunity to make instrument flights under international standards.

The expansive cockpit upgrade is designed to allow operators to fly the Mi-26T2 with far fewer personnel, with a reduction to two pilots and an external sling operator; earlier models required five crewmembers. As part of the modernization package, the sling operator can visually control the external load through a BTU-3 television system that shows the color image on the cockpit display. During night operations with external loads the crew can use the Transas TSL-1600 searchlight that also has an infrared illuminator to be used with night vision goggles.

The Mi-26T2 can carry up to 20 tons of payload either on external sling or in the cargo compartment. The helicopter has a maximum takeoff weight of 56 tons, cruise speed of 255 kph (160 mph.), static ceiling of 4,600 meters and a flight range of 800 km with standard fuel tanks.

The engine also is being enhanced. The new version is powered by a pair of modernized D-136-2 turboshafts developed by the Ukrainian companies Ivchenko-Progress and Motor Sich. The new turboshaft also features full-authority digital engine controls, as well as a contingency power mode of 12,500 hp for extreme operations above 30C. Maximum takeoff power has been increased by 250 shp to 11,650 shp. The new engine’s power parameters will expand the helicopter’s altitude and temperature flight envelope and enable it to continue horizontal flight even with one engine inoperative, say officials for the engine consortium.

The Mi-26T2 is competing against the Chinook in the Indian tender, which started in 2009. The Indian air force has some experience with the Russian heavy-lifters as they became the first foreign customer for the Mi-26. In the 1980s the Indian military purchased four rotorcraft of this type. One of them crashed during takeoff at Jammu airport in December 2010; the others are believed to be still in service.

Rostvertol Readies Upgraded Mi-26 | AVIATION WEEK
 
I mentioned Longbow is still better than Ka-52 in terms of sensors, networking and others but Ka-52 is a powerful chopper as well, better than Mi-28N we earlier heard competing with AH-64D. But still Apache wins.
If we decide to go for Russian option then i think we should go for Ka52 rather than Mi28N because its true Ka52 is a very powerful machine.
 

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