De-Islamization of India

[fitpOsitive]

The practice of 7 circles (7 phairay) is prior to Islam so it cannot have been borrowed from Islam.

Is there any proof that 7 phyras were there before Islam? Or any written proof that current Hindu gods existed before 1800s?

 

[Hyde]

Is there any proof that 7 phyras were there before Islam? Or any written proof that current Hindu gods existed before 1800s?

Are you for real?

Well historical evidence exists that belief of Hindu gods existed before 1800s.

For example the Temples of Katas Raj in Pakistan suggests they are very old, certainly older than 18th century. The Muslim history suggests that “Raja Dahir” of Sindh was a Hindu at least 1 minute prior to invasion of Sindh by Muhammad Bin Qasim. Furthermore the earliest Muslim invasions of India by Islamic sources suggest that they were mainly against Hindu kingdoms.

The practice of doing something for 7 times exists in Hinduism for a long time. Like I said they have few similarities with Islam but they also believe in 7 universes (Loka) above the earth just like Muslim says “7 aasman hain”. Likewise they also believe in 7 universe below earth.

Furthermore they have 7 sacred cities in India. They also have 7 sacred rivers and couple of other things that I don’t remember anymore.

The point I am stressing is their practice of doing something 7 times is found in many places, not just the wedding. The wedding was to take place, so in old days they thought the best way to do is to do “7 pheray”. So number 7 holds religious significance for them. Muslim on the other hand decided to do Nikah with witnesses to call it a wedding.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Are you for real?

Well historical evidence exists that belief of Hindu gods existed before 1800s.

For example the Temples of Katas Raj in Pakistan suggests they are very old, certainly older than 18th century. The Muslim history suggests that “Raja Dahir” of Sindh was a Hindu at least 1 minute prior to invasion of Sindh by Muhammad Bin Qasim. Furthermore the earliest Muslim invasions of India by Islamic sources suggest that they were mainly against Hindu kingdoms.

The practice of doing something for 7 times exists in Hinduism for a long time. Like I said they have few similarities with Islam but they also believe in 7 universes (Loka) above the earth just like Muslim says “7 aasman hain”. Likewise they also believe in 7 universe below earth.

Furthermore they have 7 sacred cities in India. They also have 7 sacred rivers and couple of other things that I don’t remember anymore.

The point I am stressing is their practice of doing something 7 times is found in many places, not just the wedding. The wedding was to take place, so in old days they thought the best way to do is to do “7 pheray”. So number 7 holds religious significance for them. Muslim on the other hand decided to do Nikah with witnesses to call it a wedding.

The Hindus that Muslims invaded were worshipping Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva? I asked you, show me a single written evidence that Hindus before 1800s even knew the names these gods? Or the name RAM existed before 1500s?

 

[fitpOsitive]

@Hyde people in India believe that pagans of Makkah were worshipping the same gods as they do. That's not true. And then majority of Hindus today believe that their elders were also worshipping the same gods as they do today. That's also not true. Then when did all Hinduism, as we know it today began to evolve? Well around the mid of 1800s when Hindus of subcontinent started to interact with Brits. The amazing thing is, you can find poetry written in Urdu as old as 400 to 500 years. But finding a Hindi manuscript written in Devanagari script older than 200 will be very difficult.

 

[CIA Mole]

https://x.com/meerfaisal01/status/1691490729418502144?s=46&t=WvJE7DnBpDJHf32fHDhhVw

 

[Paro_Peagus]

Are you for real?

Well historical evidence exists that belief of Hindu gods existed before 1800s.

For example the Temples of Katas Raj in Pakistan suggests they are very old, certainly older than 18th century. The Muslim history suggests that “Raja Dahir” of Sindh was a Hindu at least 1 minute prior to invasion of Sindh by Muhammad Bin Qasim. Furthermore the earliest Muslim invasions of India by Islamic sources suggest that they were mainly against Hindu kingdoms.

The practice of doing something for 7 times exists in Hinduism for a long time. Like I said they have few similarities with Islam but they also believe in 7 universes (Loka) above the earth just like Muslim says “7 aasman hain”. Likewise they also believe in 7 universe below earth.

Furthermore they have 7 sacred cities in India. They also have 7 sacred rivers and couple of other things that I don’t remember anymore.

The point I am stressing is their practice of doing something 7 times is found in many places, not just the wedding. The wedding was to take place, so in old days they thought the best way to do is to do “7 pheray”. So number 7 holds religious significance for them. Muslim on the other hand decided to do Nikah with witnesses to call it a wedding.

Did you really have to waste your time with a troll?

 

[fitpOsitive]

Did you really have to waste your time with a troll?

You answer my questions then.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Are you for real?

Well historical evidence exists that belief of Hindu gods existed before 1800s.

For example the Temples of Katas Raj in Pakistan suggests they are very old, certainly older than 18th century. The Muslim history suggests that “Raja Dahir” of Sindh was a Hindu at least 1 minute prior to invasion of Sindh by Muhammad Bin Qasim. Furthermore the earliest Muslim invasions of India by Islamic sources suggest that they were mainly against Hindu kingdoms.

The practice of doing something for 7 times exists in Hinduism for a long time. Like I said they have few similarities with Islam but they also believe in 7 universes (Loka) above the earth just like Muslim says “7 aasman hain”. Likewise they also believe in 7 universe below earth.

Furthermore they have 7 sacred cities in India. They also have 7 sacred rivers and couple of other things that I don’t remember anymore.

The point I am stressing is their practice of doing something 7 times is found in many places, not just the wedding. The wedding was to take place, so in old days they thought the best way to do is to do “7 pheray”. So number 7 holds religious significance for them. Muslim on the other hand decided to do Nikah with witnesses to call it a wedding.

Seven in Narrative in Bible​

The number 7 comes up explicitly in many narratives:

Creation—God creates for six days, and on the seventh day God rests, blessing and sanctifying the seventh day.[1]

Noah’s Animals—Noah must bring seven pairs of clean animals on the ark.[2]

Days—Narratives often mark the passing of a short time with seven days. For example, God warns Noah that the flood will come in 7 days,[3] seven days separate the blood and frogs plague, etc.[4]

Years—Narratives that wish to mark the passing of a long time sometimes use seven years. For example, Jacob works for Rachel and Leah for seven years each,[5] the good and bad years in Egypt each last seven years, etc.[6]

Progeny—Job (twice) has seven sons as does the barren woman in Channah’s poem.[7] Reuel has seven daughters.[8]

Punishment—Cain is given a seven-fold punishment, as are the Israelites if they sin.[9] Lamech even suggests that seventy-seven-fold is sometimes appropriate.[10]

Testimony—Abraham gives Abimelech seven sheep as a sign that Abraham is to maintain possession of Beersheba (“Well of Oath/Well of Seven” a play on words).[11]

Consecration—When Moses consecrates Aaron and his sons for priesthood, they must remain in the Tabernacle area for seven days.[12]

Seven in Laws and Rituals​

The dominance of 7 is perhaps even clearer in laws and rituals:

Festivals—Shabbat is every seven days; Shavuot is seven weeks after the Matzot Festival; the 1st, 10th, 15th, and 22nd of the seventh month are festive or sacred days. Also, the festivals of Matzot and Sukkot are seven days long.[13]

Shemitah—Every seven years, debts are canceled, and the land must lie fallow.[14] After seven cycles of seven years pass, the jubilee year is declared.[15]

Slaves—Hebrew slaves are to be freed on the seventh year.[16]

Newborns—Animals are ready for sacrifice after seven days have passed.[17] Boys are circumcised after seven days have passed.[18]

Impurity— A mother of a male is impure for seven days, and twice that for a female.[19] The period for testing skin disease (tzaraʾat) is seven days.[20]

Purification—Rituals of purification make use of seven sprinklings or immersions,[21] and seven-day periods.[22]

Sacrifices—Many sacrificial rituals involve seven animals.[23]

Menorah—The lampstand in the Tabernacle has seven lamps.[24]

Seven-Fold Keywords​

The seven-fold occurrence of a word in a biblical passage may also have significance, perhaps indicating a deliberate attempt by the author to highlight a “keyword” or “theme” in the text.[25]

Cain and Abel—Genesis 4 uses the name Abel seven times, as well as the word אח “brother” seven times.[26] Moreover, Cain’s line lasts seven generations.[27]

Abraham and Abimelech—Genesis 21:22–34 employs the names of its two protagonists, Abraham and Abimelech, seven times each in the chapter about their oath in Beersheba.[28]

Finding Rebecca—Genesis 24 contains seven uses of the verb ה.ל.כ, “to go,” in connection with Rebecca, highlighting the importance of the action, because the fate of Abraham’s line of descent hinges on whether Rebecca will “go” with his servant back to the land of Canaan.[29]

Jacob works for Laban—Genesis 29 finds its keyword in the root ע.ב.ד, “work,” “labor,” which occurs seven times in the narrative.[30]

Jacob’s Pact with Laban—Genesis 31:44–54 repeats the word גַּל, “heap of (memorial) stones,” seven times.[31]

Judah’s Plea to Joseph—Genesis 44:18–34 uses the word “father,” אָב, fourteen times. Sarna notes in his commentary on Gen 45:3 that this element ultimately causes Joseph to lose his composure in the narrative.[32]

Moses’ Birth and Youth—Exodus 2 features the word יֶלֶד, “child,” seven times in vv. 1–10, and אִישׁ, “man,” seven times in vv. 11–22. Both terms refer to Moses, first as an endangered Hebrew child, and then as an aggressive, seemingly-Egyptian “man.”[33]

Splitting the Sea—Exodus 14 uses the word יָד, “hand,” seven times as the keyword in Israel’s last encounter with Pharaoh at the Reed Sea. יָד in the Exodus narrative symbolizes God’s wondrous might.[34]

Mount Sinai—Exodus 19 and 24, the literary frame for the legal material in chapters 20–23, each have seven instances of the root ד.ב.ר (“speak” as a verb and “word” as a noun). Further, the verb י.ר.ד, “descend,” occurs seven times in chapter 19, while its antonym ע.ל.ה/י, “ascend,” appears seven times in chapter 24.[35]

Curses—Leviticus 26:14–45 warns Israel that it will be punished seven-fold for “walking with hostility towards God,” a loose translation of ה.ל.כ קֶרִי. The noun קֶרִי is used seven times in the section.[36]

Red Heifer—Numbers 19 has 7-fold use of 7 different subjects:[37]

• The cow and/or its ashes;[38]
• Burnt items;[39]
• Sprinkling;[40]
• Persons who wash;[41]
• Contaminated items;[42]
• Those that are purified;[43]
• Priests. [44]

Transjordanian Tribes—Numbers 32 presents the seven-fold recurrence of five key terms:

• “Gad and Reuben,” in this order;
• אֲחֻזָּה and נַחֲלָה, “land-holding” and “inheritance”;
• ע.ב.ר, “to cross,” the Jordan River;
• ח.ל.ץ, “be equipped” or “vanguard”;
• לִפְנֵי יְ־הוָה, “before YHWH.”

These five terms can summarize the chapter: If Gad and Reuben cross the Jordan as the vanguard before YHWH (the Ark), they will receive the land-holdings that they desire.[45]

Repentance—Deut 30:1–10, about circumcision of the heart, includes the seven-fold use of the verbal forms of שׁ.ו.ב.[46] In chapter 30, the word לֵב, “heart,” appears seven times.[47]

Elements Occurring in Sevens​

In addition, seven may serve as a structural or organizational principle that governs the number of elements included in a passage.[48]

The ancestors of Israel—Israel has seven ancestors: three patriarchs and four matriarchs.

Seventy Nations—Genesis 10 includes seventy peoples in its “Table of Nations.”[49]

YHWH’s Call to Abram—God’s call to Abram in Genesis 12:2–3 includes seven elements:

וְאֶֽעֶשְׂךָ֙ לְג֣וֹי גָּד֔וֹל

I will make you a great nation,

וַאֲבָ֣רֶכְךָ֔

I will bless you,

וַאֲגַדְּלָ֖ה שְׁמֶ֑ךָ

I will make your name great,

וֶהְיֵ֖ה בְּרָכָֽה׃

You will be a blessing,

וַאֲבָֽרֲכָה֙ מְבָ֣רְכֶ֔יךָ

I will bless those who bless you,

וּמְקַלֶּלְךָ֖ אָאֹ֑ר

He who curses you I will curse,

וְנִבְרְכ֣וּ בְךָ֔ כֹּ֖ל מִשְׁפְּחֹ֥ת הָאֲדָמָֽה׃

All of the families of the earth will bless themselves by you.

The number 7 in this context conveys the comprehensiveness of God’s endowments to Abraham.

Melchizedek blesses Abraham—Genesis 14:19–20 contains two seven-word blessings.[50]

YHWH’s Revelation in Egypt—Exodus 6:6–8 employs seven first-person verbs as YHWH emphatically declares to Moses an intention to redeem Israel and bring them to the land promised to the patriarchs.[51]

The Creation Story: Seven Examples of Seven​

Genesis 1:1–2:4 abounds with examples of both words and elements that recur seven times or in multiples of seven.

1. Genesis 1:1 contains seven words and twenty-eight letters.
2. Verse 2, the description of primal chaos, is described in fourteen words.
3. The word אֱלֹהִים “God” is found thirty-five times in Gen 1:1–2:3.
4. The term אֶרֶץ, “land,” appears twenty-one times in the passage, and so (together) do the terms רָקִיעַ “firmament” and שָׁמַיִם “heavens” in Gen 1:1–2:4a.
5. The root ח.י.ה, “animal” or “living,” is used seven times on days five and six of creation. So are the verbal and nominal forms of the roots ע.ו.ף, “bird” and “flying,” as well as ר.מ.שׂ, “creeping things,” or “creep.”
6. The seventh day, the focus of Gen 2:1–3, has thirty-five words. Verses 1–3a have three clauses, each with seven words, and the words “seventh day” are in the center of each clause.
7. The word טוב, “good,” also occurs seven times—the last occurrence in v. 31.

This is the strongest example of implicit 7s. According to Cassuto, “It is impossible to suppose that all of this is coincidental.”[52]

Are Seven-Fold Keywords or Elements Always Intentional?​

The examples listed above, which are not meant to be exhaustive, offer evidence that the biblical authors used the seven-fold repetition of a word or element as a device to emphasize keywords or themes.[53] At the same time, Meir Bar Ilan, professor of Talmud at Bar Ilan University, cautions against counting elements in a text in order to arrive at an exegetically significant number, because this number is not intrinsic to the text and is rather “imported” by the reader.[54] The count of words or elements may be coincidental and therefore not attributable to the intent of the author.

In addition, scholars sometimes err in their counting. For example, Sarna claims that in Melchizedek’s blessings (Gen 14:19–20), the name “Abram” occurs precisely seven times in the chapter, but it actually occurs eight times in seven verses.[55]

Finally, sometimes whether any given element should be considered the same element or not for the purposes of counting to seven is subjective. For example, Sarna states that in the story of Leah’s bartering her mandrakes to Rachel in return for sex with Jacob (Gen 30:14–24), God is referred to seven times. Sarna argues that the text is saying that despite their best efforts to maximize their fertility, it is God who is in control. Thus, Sarna comments: “It can hardly be coincidental that God is mentioned seven times in all.”[56] In this case, the name Elohim appears six times in vv. 17–23, while the Tetragrammaton is used in v. 24, making the argument that the name serves as a keyword less convincing.

Nevertheless, the overall trend seems to be clear. The biblical authors made extensive use of the number seven, both explicitly and implicitly, in narratives as well as in laws.

Ancient Near Eastern Background​

Various factors may have contributed to the importance of the number 7. For example, Mesopotamian astronomers knew of seven heavenly bodies: Sun, Moon, Saturn, Venus, Jupiter, Mars, and Mercury. Because of the deification of astral bodies, 7 became identified with holiness and perfection. Francine Klagsbrun writes, “As a symbol of the heavens, the number seven came to stand for wholeness and harmony, even perfection.”[57]

In addition, the appeal of 7 as a significant number may relate to its unique status among the digits from 1–10. Seven is a prime number. According to the standards of Babylonian mathematics, 7 is also the first “non-regular” number, because it is not divisible by 2, 3, or 5.[58] In addition, 7 is unallied with any other number. The numbers 2, 4, 6, and 8—and indeed all even numbers—are “brothers,” as are 3, 6, and 9. The number 7, however, stands alone and can receive a distinctive meaning by virtue of its irregularity.[59]

 

[Skimming]

Our establishment knows the best and I have no objection. But in the aftermath of De-Islamization drive in India, some things, some legacies will be missed by people who live long enough. That legacy will be looked back at with nostalgia by people whose life will span the periods before and after the De-Islamization drive.

Examples:

* Quality Urdu poetry - Now I know why former PM Dr Manmohan Singh was a famous fan of Urdu poetry

* Urdu type Hindi learnt at school and through Bollywood movies and television shows. My generation uses the word 'jaldi'. The Sanskrit type Hindi word for it is 'shighra'.

* The Red Fort type monuments

@sms

 

[sms]

@sms

I don't really care and current gen do not give damn about what has happened 30 years ago, let alone 100s of years.

About language, it changes/ adapts and every few decades

 

[Kaniska]

Our establishment knows the best and I have no objection. But in the aftermath of De-Islamization drive in India, some things, some legacies will be missed by people who live long enough. That legacy will be looked back at with nostalgia by people whose life will span the periods before and after the De-Islamization drive.

Examples:

* Quality Urdu poetry - Now I know why former PM Dr Manmohan Singh was a famous fan of Urdu poetry

* Urdu type Hindi learnt at school and through Bollywood movies and television shows. My generation uses the word 'jaldi'. The Sanskrit type Hindi word for it is 'shighra'.

* The Red Fort type monuments

Why do we want to De Islamize India? We should be proud of our Sufi tradition which is hallmark of our Indo-Islamic culture.
You have to differentiate between radicalism propagated by the Pakistan military through Indian Muslims vs Islam as a religion. Our problem is we see Islam through the lens of Pakistan. So rather than De Islamization, we should encourage Muslim intellectuals from ASEAN countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia to interact more with India and segregate between the two.

 

[nahtanbob]

The Hindus that Muslims invaded were worshipping Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva? I asked you, show me a single written evidence that Hindus before 1800s even knew the names these gods? Or the name RAM existed before 1500s?

I am not an expert here. There are written inscriptions of Hindu epics from 2nd century BCE with references to Rama. Those names got carried over to South East Asia a long time ago.