Burma to Purchase Chinese-Pakistani JF-17 Fighter Jets

[gslv mk3]

The Dhruv was brought up on your ideals of indigenous components

It involved foreign consultancy from beginning.

you say the situation has changed in three years

Shakthi engine,main gearbox ?

 

[SQ8]

It involved foreign consultancy from beginning.



Shakthi engine,main gearbox ?

Then what is the point of trying to avoid admitting that?

The Shakti engine is not totally Indian as such either, The gearbox as well. Previously it was being assembled, now these are being built in house. So the situation has gone from 90% foreign components to 60% foriegn and 30% JV at best.

 

[GORKHALI]

Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - The Times of India

That was CAG report based on atleast 2year of data collection and news article posted by you is Aug2010.The latest was from 2013,that content was increased to 70% and HAL chief itself said that in a globalised market ,we procure equipments at cheaper from wherever we can get from regardless of if its indigenous or not.

 

[MilSpec]

Indigenous? Dhruv advanced light helicopters are '90% foreign' - The Times of India

I would dispute CAG's report and it's interpretation of ToI as well. Dhruv's Engine is produced by an Indo-French consortium. it's avionics are order built by HAL specs, it gear box is designed and built by international vendor whtat also builds gearboxes for Sikorsky, and Bell. Its airframe, system harness, mission computer, rotors, are built by HAL, CFD, Product development and optimization is carried out by HAL.

When HAL makes the Bomb bay doors for F/A 18 hornets, it doesn't become less american.

 

[gslv mk3]

The Shakti engine is not totally Indian as such either, The gearbox as well. Previously it was being assembled, now these are being built in house

I never said,it was fully Indigenous.Shakthi has some 30 % Indian content,Gearbox is a heavily modified ZF design now manufactured in India.

Then what is the point of trying to avoid admitting that?

Well whats wrong in calling it Indian ? We all call AW 139 Italian..

 

[MilSpec]

Then what is the point of trying to avoid admitting that?

The Shakti engine is not totally Indian as such either, The gearbox as well. Previously it was being assembled, now these are being built in house. So the situation has gone from 90% foreign components to 60% foriegn and 30% JV at best.

Sir,

lets not forget indian defence market was not very big. technologies in metallurgy and kinematics is still developing. India did not have the local industry to sustain hig technology production, and thus out sourcing of technology is common. Even china does the same with it's Engines for both military and domestic applications from wither the west or russia.

 

[SQ8]

I never said,it was fully Indigenous.Shakthi has some 30 % Indian content,Gearbox is a heavily modified ZF design now manufactured in India.



Well whats wrong in calling it Indian ? We all call AW 139 Italian..

Sure, you can call the MKI Indian.. that is the right due to input. But its wrong to try and gloat about it being all Indian, it is dishonest and hypocritical behaviour as far as many Indian members here are concerned... but that is expected then. Very few honest Indians(who represent the major populous) would bother coming here.

Sir,

lets not forget indian defence market was not very big. technologies in metallurgy and kinematics is still developing. India did not have the local industry to sustain hig technology production, and thus out sourcing of technology is common. Even china does the same with it's Engines for both military and domestic applications from wither the west or russia.

Monsieur , that is besides the point. The question is not what India can do and cannot do. Its about highlighting cynical hypocrisy.
The cryogenic engine made in India is Indian, but would it be intellectually and ethically honest to say only Indians helped bring it to life?

 

[gslv mk3]

But its wrong to try and gloat about it being all Indian

No product is entirely indigenous.

 

[SQ8]

No product is entirely indigenous.

Then why claim it as such?
and yes it is, in developed nations.

 

[gslv mk3]

Then why claim it as such?
and yes it is, in developed nations.

Even our BMs have some amount of foreign components .But a product with sufficent Indian input (Dhruv,Tejas )can be called Indian while some can't be (MKI)

 

[SQ8]

Even our BMs have some amount of foreign components .But a product with sufficent Indian input (Dhruv,Tejas )can be called Indian while some can't be (MKI)

Calling it Indian , and saying it is all Indian.. are two different things. You can call it Indian, but you cant say it was done all in India.

If you do that, then you cannot call out the systems of other nations as well, or am I to understand that generally Indians are hypocrites?

 

[gslv mk3]

but you cant say it was done all in India.

We didn't.Just as in case of Gripen,J 10,JF 17..

The cryogenic engine made in India is Indian, but would it be intellectually and ethically honest to say only Indians helped bring it to life?

I guess yes,since Russia denied blueprints,and more importantly-metallurgy.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yeah, in the normal world of defense procurement's.

We don't do defense, equipment procurement like you do.
It's always rumours until the very last minute where all is revealed.

Take the acquisition of Jordanian F-16's, did you ever hear about it before it happened? As for Burma, it makes sense for them to be quiet, sanctions are a huge consideration for them, which is why they might be taking the JF-17 seriously.

 

[SQ8]

I guess yes,since Russia denied blueprints,and more importantly-metallurgy.

Nope, the R&D staff had to be brought back from Russia and they brought back those ideas . Then GSLV-1 had a RUSSIAN Cryo-third stage.. So the program had Russian knowledge and information in it from the start. What India did with it then is the achievement. But saying that India made it out of scrap and from the ground up.. is dishonest.

 

[MilSpec]

Monsieur , that is besides the point. The question is not what India can do and cannot do. Its about highlighting cynical hypocrisy.
The cryogenic engine made in India is Indian, but would it be intellectually and ethically honest to say only Indians helped bring it to life?

Cmon now, hypocrisy is patented trait for us.

But on a semi-serious note, why cant countries like India or pakistan build all subsystems for an aircraft and has to rely on partner nations for subsystems. designing a component and reproducing the same, every production run is quite different.
Gear boxes are an example, the load transmission, reliability, bearing life, needle bearing consistency, surface wear, the level of technology needed was never available to begin with, thus we have to import those units to maintain an attractive price point. SKF bearings are a good example, the world uses them. BMW Mercs and even kia use SKF bearings on thier units, because it's just not feasible to setup a bearing manufacturing eco system. similarly in India, vis-a-vis HAL supplier quality issues leads to procurement from industry certified agencies and non-existent precision engineering technology results into the same. China faces the same problem when it come to reliability in their platforms, I won't sign my name on any product where reliability of subsystem is suspect. When you have to deliver on time, identifying a quality supplier is the key, and I suspect that is the reason for foreign content in ALH.

In my opinion ALH was a good experiment. Due to off the shelf elements in production and design the fruition of the project was extremely fast, on the other end of spectrum is LCA, where the opposite approach did not yield any favorable results wither.[/quote]