BREAKING: 1st Air-Launched BrahMos Test In March

[Screambowl]

K15 only offers around 750Km now and is far away from the 1000Km+ => therefor doesn't offer the required performance
.

With less payload, obviously range can be increased.

 

[Ind4Ever]

War Khan what about Bramos Mini ? It can be added to Tejas ? In future ? Mini is half the size an dc weight but same punch

 

[sancho]

With less payload, obviously range can be increased.

Of course, but it's still far too less for an SSBN

K 15, 750 Km range was intended as per requirement by Navy,where you see performance issue bro. Threat Perception increased from Pakistan to China now hence K 4 is online.

Lol you stated it yourself that it's 700 to 1200Km and Pakistan was never the benchmark for our SSBN projects and the related missiles. The rest is as said just hope on future capability, so lets not waste our time since that actually is achieved.

With less payload, obviously range can be increased.

Sure, but that's the point how much payload you have to sacrifice. No matter what, for the deterrence against China we need more capable missiles.

 

[Screambowl]

Of course, but it's still far too less for an SSBN

Along with them they will have 4 K4.

 

[GORKHALI]

Of course, but it's still far too less for an SSBN


Lol you stated it yourself that it's 700 to 1200Km and Pakistan was never the benchmark for our SSBN projects and the related missiles. The rest is as said just hope on future capability, so lets not waste our time since that actually is achieved.


Sure, but that's the point how much payload you have to sacrifice. No matter what, for the deterrence against China we need more capable missiles.

Mate..700-1200 Km can be achieved with lesser payload Say 250 Kg Payload for Maximum Range and 1 T for 750.

 

[skysthelimit]

K15 only offers around 750Km now and is far away from the 1000Km+ => therefor doesn't offer the required performance
Astra so far offers only 44Km, which is far below the R77 it is meant to replace => therefor doesn't offer the required performance
Astra MK2 is just a pipe dream and if you think METEOR's advantage is range, you clearly haven't informed yourself about it.
I don't prefer foreign stuff, but see things realistically as they are and not how we want them to be! That's why I see the current status of these projects, while you point out the "hope" you have that these projects will reach these performance in future and I even share the hope, but don't let myself blind of it. A delayed test in 2015 remains to be a delayed test and not something good unless it made a considerable jump in the development. If that happens, I surely will give credit to that.

It is exactly this attitude that has left India in the soup that we are in now. Specifically the attitude that we see from the army and air force.

Yes, our first systems are not the "best" in the world, but as the armed forces start adopting them, incremental developments can be made to bring them up to world class. The navy tried this approach - and that's why most of our surface ships are now indigenous and world class. Army, IAF didnt, and look where we are now. If you want all features short of the kitchen sink from v0 and then complain when you dont get it, you will only have yourself to blame.

BTW your level of optimism for Eurofighter capability and development is significantly higher than that for Indian products. So dont feel bad if you get called the lover of phoren maal.

 

[sancho]

It is exactly this attitude that has left India in the soup that we are in now. Specifically the attitude that we see from the army and air force.

What attitude? Facts over blind pride? It's a fact than most of our indigenous developments are not as capable as promised, delayed in development and THEREFOR has caused the forces to buy foreign stuff. You and even I don't like it, but that's the simple truth, which can't be denied!

Yes, our first systems are not the "best" in the world,

Who said they need to be the best in the world? Astra needs to be "capable enough" to replace R27 and R77s, so offer a range of around 80Km, not the 100+Km that GORKHALI suggested, or to be as capable as METEOR (which has nothing to do with range, but with the ramjet propulsion), but the FACT is that it falls short in it's current version to be as capable as the older Russian missiles that we have. That's even why DRDO already points to the MK2 version as the base to offer the required performance. I have no problem with waiting for that, even if that causes the import of more foreign missiles as a stopgap (Derby, R27s), but I want to see actual results not only promises from DRDO!

most of our surface ships are now indigenous and world class.

Again the unrealistic notion to be world class. But lets take that for the moment, what makes them world class? The Italian guns, Israeli AESA radars and air defence missiles, the Russian guns and cruise missiles and partially even the US engines? Lets not fool ourselfs here, our indigenously developed naval vessels benefit A LOT from access to foreign and jointly developed systems, which is exactly the advantage we need to use. Develop vessels or aircrafts according to indigenous requirements, but don't limit yourself to indigenous techs and capabilities only, what happens when you do that is sadly visible in the LCA project.

BTW your level of optimism for Eurofighter capability and development is significantly higher than that for Indian products. So dont feel bad if you get called the lover of phoren maal.

I don't feel bad at all, but I stick to facts and not just to pride! LCA got IOC1 in 2011, IOC2 in 2013 and will hopefully get FOC by the end of this year, compare the improvements it made in that time, with the improvements the EF made in the same time and you will understand the difference. I will love to see a capable version of LCA to be inducted into IAF and be the base for our aviation industry, but till that day comes, the simple truth is, that we need foreign fighters, weapons and technical imput, which is what the MMRCA offer us.

 

[sancho]

Something interesting on Brahmos from the French Air & Cosmos magazin, not sure if true though:

(google translated)

BrahMos: a first shot from a hunter in March?

The Russian news agency RIA Novosti said that a first test firing of the embedded version of Hunter's cruise missile BrahMos will take place in March 2015. The test launch will be from an Indian Su-30MKI fighter.

According to the Russian company Mashinostroyenie representing Russian industry in the Russian-Indian Brahmos Aerospace Consortium, flight tests have been carried out with a model of the missile. The drivers are trained especially during takeoff and landing with the imposing missile.

The carriage of BrahMos has required the integration under the Su-30MKI a large ventral pylon. The cell of some devices has also been strengthened. Built in aluminum, this tower alone weighs 480 kg, six meters long! What suspend under Russian fighter bomber the imposing missile 2.5 tons, supposed to display a maximum speed of Mach 2.8. This one is dropped by gravity and not ejected, says one in Brahmos.
The integration of BrahMos as a hunter is a long-awaited project. In February 2014, Brahmos Aerospace already announced that the first shot was prominent. The entry into service in the Indian Army Airborne version of BrahMos is expected for 2016. A schedule that seems optimistic.

One version to the small size of BrahMos and logically degraded performance is also under development. The BrahMos M could be shipped including Mig-29K, T-50 and Rafale same as BrahMos Aerospace. The Su-30MKI could take him two missiles of this type of wing.

BrahMos: un premier tir depuis un chasseur en mars ? - Air et Cosmos


We know that there were mock ups of the missile attached to the centerline for ground tests, but so far no report stated anything about flight tests being done. If true, why didn't we saw pics so far and why did the Indian media missed that?

 

[Agent_47]

Again the unrealistic notion to be world class. But lets take that for the moment, what makes them world class? The Italian guns, Israeli AESA radars and air defence missiles, the Russian guns and cruise missiles and partially even the US engines? Lets not fool ourselfs here, our indigenously developed naval vessels benefit A LOT from access to foreign and jointly developed systems, which is exactly the advantage we need to use.

What makes Japanese navy world class? US radar/engine/missiles ?

Unlike china/pakistan we have freedom to choose and Unlike US/Russia/UK/france our industries are not developed from industrial age.And now we are catching up when they are still running !
So, what is wrong with choosing the best when we cant make them on time ?

learn to appreciate what we have done.

 

[illusion8]

I'm spoken like an American. Would anyone that want to destroy the good old boy club electable?

You don't "spoken" like an American. zeems more chinglish to me.

 

[Abingdonboy]

We know that there were mock ups of the missile attached to the centerline for ground tests, but so far no report stated anything about flight tests being done. If true, why didn't we saw pics so far and why did the Indian media missed that?

It's the Indian media what do you expect sir? It makes sense, they would hardly test fire the missile on the very first time a MKI flew with one.

 

[sancho]

So, what is wrong with choosing the best when we cant make them on time ?

Nothing, that's the point! We took the best from the access we had and this combination with our indigenous effort made a Shivalik class for example a very capable vessel. It's the mix and not only our indigenous effort! Without these foreign systems, we would be limited to what our limit industrial capabilites and the same frigate with the same design would be far less capable. That's why we shouldn't limit ourself just out of pride or overestimate our capabilities and claim we can develop world class things on our own when we can't.
LCA with Kaveri engine and indigenous radar would had been less capable as well, than the MK1 now with GE engine and Israeli radar. Again it's the mix that makes it capable, while the overestimation that we can develop an engine or a radar went into failures.

It's the Indian media what do you expect sir? It makes sense, they would hardly test fire the missile on the very first time a MKI flew with one.

Well, but with our habit to celebrate anything the first flight with Brahmos normally would had been an easy chance to celebrate in front of the media again. So it is kind of strange that we hear about it only from a Russian source, via a French media report. But true, they wouldn't do the first launch with the first flight.

 

[skysthelimit]

Something interesting on Brahmos from the French Air & Cosmos magazin, not sure if true though:

(google translated)


BrahMos: un premier tir depuis un chasseur en mars ? - Air et Cosmos


We know that there were mock ups of the missile attached to the centerline for ground tests, but so far no report stated anything about flight tests being done. If true, why didn't we saw pics so far and why did the Indian media missed that?

Most likely they mean flight envelope and aerodynamic testing of the MKI with a missile mock up.

What attitude? Facts over blind pride? It's a fact than most of our indigenous developments are not as capable as promised, delayed in development and THEREFOR has caused the forces to buy foreign stuff. You and even I don't like it, but that's the simple truth, which can't be denied!



Who said they need to be the best in the world? Astra needs to be "capable enough" to replace R27 and R77s, so offer a range of around 80Km, not the 100+Km that GORKHALI suggested, or to be as capable as METEOR (which has nothing to do with range, but with the ramjet propulsion), but the FACT is that it falls short in it's current version to be as capable as the older Russian missiles that we have. That's even why DRDO already points to the MK2 version as the base to offer the required performance. I have no problem with waiting for that, even if that causes the import of more foreign missiles as a stopgap (Derby, R27s), but I want to see actual results not only promises from DRDO!



Again the unrealistic notion to be world class. But lets take that for the moment, what makes them world class? The Italian guns, Israeli AESA radars and air defence missiles, the Russian guns and cruise missiles and partially even the US engines? Lets not fool ourselfs here, our indigenously developed naval vessels benefit A LOT from access to foreign and jointly developed systems, which is exactly the advantage we need to use. Develop vessels or aircrafts according to indigenous requirements, but don't limit yourself to indigenous techs and capabilities only, what happens when you do that is sadly visible in the LCA project.



I don't feel bad at all, but I stick to facts and not just to pride! LCA got IOC1 in 2011, IOC2 in 2013 and will hopefully get FOC by the end of this year, compare the improvements it made in that time, with the improvements the EF made in the same time and you will understand the difference. I will love to see a capable version of LCA to be inducted into IAF and be the base for our aviation industry, but till that day comes, the simple truth is, that we need foreign fighters, weapons and technical imput, which is what the MMRCA offer us.

1. The attitude that every indigenous system needs to better than foreign options, no matter how much more expensive they are.
2. When you want Astra to beat R77, that is the expectation of world class. Why not start rolling out the Astra v1 while keeping the existing R77s. Then replace them when Astra v2 is ready. This way the IAF gets to test them out in day-to-day ops and get comfortable with the system.
3. Oh yes, our new destroyers and frigates are world class, whether you admit it or not.
4. So what they carry foreign sub-systems? Eventually we will learn to replace them too. Again the same attitude - I want a ship that can sail to Jupiter and shoot out the sun, otherwise I am buying Amurican
5. You have become blind to the faults of phoren maal - every major equipment from F35 downwards have faced major delays. I am sure you know that the Eurofighter programme started in 1979, and the first series production aircraft rolled out in 2003 - a gap of 24 years. And this happened for a consortium of first world industrialized nations. Compared to that LCA doesnt sound so bad, does it?

On a related note - you were always an LCA baiter. But over the last year, you seemed to have become a baiter of all things Indian and booster of many things phoren, although mostly EF. I am afraid your account may have been hacked by Ajai Shukla. Is that true?

 

[sancho]

1. The attitude that every indigenous system needs to better than foreign options, no matter how much more expensive they are.

Which I don't have, since I am clearly saying the exact opposite! That's why I said it's wrong to aim our indigenous developments on world class, instead of being capable enough to replace the exisiting foreign counterparts. Astra needs to be as capable as currently available R27 and R77, not as the most advanced R77s, Aim 120s or even Meteor.

Why not start rolling out the Astra v1 while keeping the existing R77s. Then replace them when Astra v2 is ready. This way the IAF gets to test them out in day-to-day ops and get comfortable with the system.

Because that's a huge waste of money, to induct an operationally useless missile for a short time and replace it with the upgraded version after a short time frame. Astra is meant to replace the Russian missiles when their service life ends and then it needs to be "capable enough" to do that.

3. Oh yes, our new destroyers and frigates are world class, whether you admit it or not.

Who denied that? But I asked you what makes them so capable, just the fact that they are indigenous or the fact that we made the most out of it by adding highly capable foreign stuff too? It is as capable because we did not limit ourselfs to indigenous stuff only and that is the point!

I am sure you know that the Eurofighter programme started in 1979, and the first series production aircraft rolled out in 2003 - a gap of 24 years. And this happened for a consortium of first world industrialized nations. Compared to that LCA doesnt sound so bad, does it?

No it wasn't started in 70, just as LCA wasn't started in the 80s, since actual program funding was done far later and in both cases only concept studies were done earlier. The important point if you want to compare though is, that the EF project didn't included development failures of the engine and radar, because that actually shows where the LCA project went wrong. If we would had developed it just like the naval vessels or the Dhruv, by focusing on the an indigenous base and adding available foreign stuff, it would be in operational service for years and a huge success, so it's not the fighter that is the problem, but exactly the pride problem that I criticize, because that let DRDO to develop radar and engines alone and delayed the whole LCA project!

On a related note - you were always an LCA baiter.

Which again is nonsense, I was always for LCA as a project, because I know how important it is for our aviation industry. That's why I always keep saying that we have to finish and further develop it and not distract ourselfs with unnecessary things like AMCA. But I am against making more out of it than it is, only because it's an indigenous project and pointing out the weak points of the projects or the continued failures of DRDO, doesn't make me anti indigenous developments, just because I want them to be finish things and not only promise them!

 

[vsdave2302]

One article states February also.