Beyond PDF: Proposals

[EyelessInGaza]

Hello,

Here's the situation: The PDF forum is on the verge of closure. Despite this, some moderators express interest in keeping the community alive. Unfortunately, saving the existing website appears unfeasible, leading us to the conclusion that starting a new website is the only viable option. Several users are in the process of creating new forums, some even setting up donation pages to support these initiatives.

While I don't oppose the creation of new websites, a concern arises when multiple factions emerge. To address this, I propose that instead of launching entirely separate platforms, these new initiatives should be considered as legal extensions or successors of the existing forum. I worry that if less established users initiate forums independently, they may lack support from senior members, resulting in the proliferation of various forums with none achieving success in the end. If they do want to go ahead, I alongside many senior members will still support them but they must come with a visionary plan

As an alternative, I'm reaching out to the old management to collaborate on creating a fresh forum. This option is open to all members interested in participating but priority will be given to those from the old management, followed by new recruitments. The idea is to have no singular owner; decisions and responsibilities will be shared among members based on their stakes. To anticipate this transition, I've registered both defencepk.com and pkdefence.com.

Option 2 invites everyone to participate, and users involved in the project will receive some form of stake, the details of which are yet to be determined. This approach involves charting a completely new path, with guidance from others. Given my background as a software engineer/web development experience, I can temporarily host the forum on my hosting provider. Once the old site is offline and the new one is operational, we can collectively agree on the way forward. At that point, I'll transfer the site to neutral hosting, technically owned by nobody/everybody.

Option 2 also means that WebMaster, Horus and many other Moderators will not be part of it. It is a collective effort by me alongside a few other MODs who will likely join. I have no intention of owning the website like WebMaster did. It will be a platform shared by many and I could be one of the many people with stake.

What are your thoughts on these options?

The answer lies in two words - People and quality.

As an Indian I’ve observed some very fine analysts and mods here. I’ve been on since 2009 and prefer to read more than comment.

Whatever you di my advice is to get these same people as your mods/ analysts/ participants in the new site. You will get your quality and hence a good website.

 

[Musings]

Azmooda Tajarbakaar Team. After the great success here, what could be better to ensure greater success there? (j/k )

Isn't that what NS promises to the nation every time and they fall for it?




Please delete the above message if it offends anyone.

No that message needs to stay as a reminder of what you are really about. Bravo and thank you for reminding everyone. So desperate for that badge weren’t you.
Enjoy your new stardom and moment of glory.

 

[Jazzbot]

Hello,

Here's the situation: The PDF forum is on the verge of closure. Despite this, some moderators express interest in keeping the community alive. Unfortunately, saving the existing website appears unfeasible, leading us to the conclusion that starting a new website is the only viable option. Several users are in the process of creating new forums, some even setting up donation pages to support these initiatives.

While I don't oppose the creation of new websites, a concern arises when multiple factions emerge. To address this, I propose that instead of launching entirely separate platforms, these new initiatives should be considered as legal extensions or successors of the existing forum. I worry that if less established users initiate forums independently, they may lack support from senior members, resulting in the proliferation of various forums with none achieving success in the end. If they do want to go ahead, I alongside many senior members will still support them but they must come with a visionary plan

As an alternative, I'm reaching out to the old management to collaborate on creating a fresh forum. This option is open to all members interested in participating but priority will be given to those from the old management, followed by new recruitments. The idea is to have no singular owner; decisions and responsibilities will be shared among members based on their stakes. To anticipate this transition, I've registered both defencepk.com and pkdefence.com.

Option 2 invites everyone to participate, and users involved in the project will receive some form of stake, the details of which are yet to be determined. This approach involves charting a completely new path, with guidance from others. Given my background as a software engineer/web development experience, I can temporarily host the forum on my hosting provider. Once the old site is offline and the new one is operational, we can collectively agree on the way forward. At that point, I'll transfer the site to neutral hosting, technically owned by nobody/everybody.

Option 2 also means that WebMaster, Horus and many other Moderators will not be part of it. It is a collective effort by me alongside a few other MODs who will likely join. I have no intention of owning the website like WebMaster did. It will be a platform shared by many and I could be one of the many people with stake.

What are your thoughts on these options?

Question is, how did they reach to current management of the website if everything is hosted in US and was behind cloudflare etc? Unless someone from top management had leaked some personal detail, that let them put their leg in the door.

Point is, if you want to continue the community then let's avoid doing the same mistake again.

 

[Hyde]

So many people have asked the same question.. so

just to clarify,

The new site is hosted in the UK. The initial team of founding members, which includes me, consists of overseas Pakistanis residing abroad with their families. While this may not be the case when more staff members come onboard but we will encourage everybody to maintain that layer of privacy for their own good.

Question is, how did they reach to current management of the website if everything is hosted in US and was behind cloudflare etc? Unless someone from top management had leaked some personal detail, that let them put their leg in the door.

Point is, if you want to continue the community then let's avoid doing the same mistake again.

We have highly professional agencies in Pakistan. They can reach out to anybody if they want. Do not underestimate them

 

[Musings]

So many people have asked the same question.. so

just to clarify,

The new site is hosted in the UK. The initial team of founding members, which includes me, consists of overseas Pakistanis residing abroad with their families. While this may not be the case when more staff members come onboard but we will encourage everybody to maintain that layer of privacy for their own good.

We have highly professional agencies in Pakistan. They can reach out to anybody if they want. Do not underestimate them

We will be guided by you guys - you draw the plan and let us know how we can assist in ANY manner.
Great to see you caring and trying to make a home for us brother.

 

[Morodvon]

While this may not be the case when more staff members come onboard but we will encourage everybody to maintain that layer of privacy for their own good.

Folks, use email protection services like duckduckgo to hide your email.

 

[313ghazi]

I think zero tolerance on serious defense related topics or serious topics in general is a good idea. But then, trolls attract other trolls and will bring down the reputation of the forum. Truly there are pearls of wisdom on PDF, some knowledgeable members have taken the time and effort to research a topic and provide fantastic insights but one has to sift through a pile of $hit to discover that nugget of pure gold.

Once upon a time we had great members like S2, Chogy a former F-15 pilot to name a few but they left and we haven’t attracted experienced professionals since then.Ask yourself, will a self respecting professional waste his/her time dealing with internet trolls?

True, that, but I keep emphasising 'controlled', not extinguished. I haven't found it impossible on fora that I have moderated.Granted, one has to have tremendous resilience. Facing the unrelenting barrage from goons is an incredibly taxing job.

Trolling on this forum got out of hand due to a lack of moderators. With time people's proirities change, their availability changes, the mod team was not updated to reflect that.

If it takes days to get an offensive post removed or a clear troll blocked, then people react. It creates a culture where people are then just trolling each other rather than reporting offensive material.

Go gung ho with the volume of moderators, start off strict against abusive language and trolling and keep to it.

 

[ARMalik]

Hello,

Here's the situation: The PDF forum is on the verge of closure. Despite this, some moderators express interest in keeping the community alive. Unfortunately, saving the existing website appears unfeasible, leading us to the conclusion that starting a new website is the only viable option. Several users are in the process of creating new forums, some even setting up donation pages to support these initiatives.

While I don't oppose the creation of new websites, a concern arises when multiple factions emerge. To address this, I propose that instead of launching entirely separate platforms, these new initiatives should be considered as legal extensions or successors of the existing forum. I worry that if less established users initiate forums independently, they may lack support from senior members, resulting in the proliferation of various forums with none achieving success in the end. If they do want to go ahead, I alongside many senior members will still support them but they must come with a visionary plan

As an alternative, I'm reaching out to the old management to collaborate on creating a fresh forum. This option is open to all members interested in participating but priority will be given to those from the old management, followed by new recruitments. The idea is to have no singular owner; decisions and responsibilities will be shared among members based on their stakes. To anticipate this transition, I've registered both defencepk.com and pkdefence.com.

Option 2 invites everyone to participate, and users involved in the project will receive some form of stake, the details of which are yet to be determined. This approach involves charting a completely new path, with guidance from others. Given my background as a software engineer/web development experience, I can temporarily host the forum on my hosting provider. Once the old site is offline and the new one is operational, we can collectively agree on the way forward. At that point, I'll transfer the site to neutral hosting, technically owned by nobody/everybody.

Option 2 also means that WebMaster, Horus and many other Moderators will not be part of it. It is a collective effort by me alongside a few other MODs who will likely join. I have no intention of owning the website like WebMaster did. It will be a platform shared by many and I could be one of the many people with stake.

What are your thoughts on these options?

Hyde,

We need to bring in new blood and new strategy. Sticking with the old management will create doubts as already there are questions being asked as to who was the Insider involved in all this.

I am happy to contribute to funding along with other members. We need a org structure, a contract of engagement which will depend on the country hosting this website and other miscellaneous items.

 

[WAJsal]

I'm hopeful that individuals like @waz, @PakSword, @WAJsal, and perhaps a few more, are interested in taking on this responsibility.

I haven't been as active as i used to be, if we can save the forum or any remnant of this forum in anyway I'm onboard. if we can create a suitable alternative I don't mind joining as a member.

 

[PakAlp]

@waz @313ghazi @VCheng @Hyde @Signalian

I think we all agree that we need to create a new forum to continue our community, but at first we must reflect on how PDF went downhill and eventually had to shut down. We simply cannot create a new forum and then face the same problems. The old moderators as @VCheng mentioned do bare some responsibility. PDF was top of their game, we mostly had India Pakistan cyber wars until the new generation youth went all inqalaabi, from being pro army and singing songs about them, they went to anti Zardari, anti Altaf, then anti Nawaz, and even that wasn't enough so went anti army. Its not about spreading negativity but to identify what and how it went wrong to finding solutions. What I find is the overall mentality of hatred and frustrations, I doubt we could ever control it, people always need someone to blame and point fingers at, this is the same in our society.

We can start by talking to @Smoke @RayKalm and reach some kind of unity with them, so that we all can unite and agree on one forum and one path going forward.

Regarding dealing with trolls, abuse, anti state comments, propaganda. I believe it would be difficult to control, our aim is to be welcoming and not blocking members and even moderators will give up after so much time. I would suggest restricting members on military related topics and research topics so people do not troll. Only VIP members should be allowed to comment on serious topics, some kind of system must be in place where people can be upgraded to be VIP.

Create a chat room where people can discuss anything and debate but the chatroom will delete the data after 100 messages, this way if people are trolling on military related topics they will be restricted but can continue to contribute in the chatroom, and then we wouldn't need 30 moderators spending their quality time looking for troll posts as its only one chatroom to moderate.

If any rola happens then they can take the debate to the chatroom, people can even challenge each other to come to chatroom for a debate on who will win the war between Russia and Ukraine or who has more knowledge on a certain topics.

Regarding ownership, I am up for anything but maybe its better to have shared ownership with people who actually care about PDF, as @Hyde is suggesting.

 

[Zarvan]

Hello,

Here's the situation: The PDF forum is on the verge of closure. Despite this, some moderators express interest in keeping the community alive. Unfortunately, saving the existing website appears unfeasible, leading us to the conclusion that starting a new website is the only viable option. Several users are in the process of creating new forums, some even setting up donation pages to support these initiatives.

While I don't oppose the creation of new websites, a concern arises when multiple factions emerge. To address this, I propose that instead of launching entirely separate platforms, these new initiatives should be considered as legal extensions or successors of the existing forum. I worry that if less established users initiate forums independently, they may lack support from senior members, resulting in the proliferation of various forums with none achieving success in the end. If they do want to go ahead, I alongside many senior members will still support them but they must come with a visionary plan

As an alternative, I'm reaching out to the old management to collaborate on creating a fresh forum. This option is open to all members interested in participating but priority will be given to those from the old management, followed by new recruitments. The idea is to have no singular owner; decisions and responsibilities will be shared among members based on their stakes. To anticipate this transition, I've registered both defencepk.com and pkdefence.com.

Option 2 invites everyone to participate, and users involved in the project will receive some form of stake, the details of which are yet to be determined. This approach involves charting a completely new path, with guidance from others. Given my background as a software engineer/web development experience, I can temporarily host the forum on my hosting provider. Once the old site is offline and the new one is operational, we can collectively agree on the way forward. At that point, I'll transfer the site to neutral hosting, technically owned by nobody/everybody.

Option 2 also means that WebMaster, Horus and many other Moderators will not be part of it. It is a collective effort by me alongside a few other MODs who will likely join. I have no intention of owning the website like WebMaster did. It will be a platform shared by many and I could be one of the many people with stake.

What are your thoughts on these options?

Agreed take over this forum

 

[arjunk]

Speaking on behalf of the much abused American community on pdf. I will not contribute my time unless we have an American in the leadership group.
Also, @LeGenD @jhungary @Deino and @siegecrossbow in charge of the military / military aviation sub forum.

Agreed, and expecting different results while doing the same things again fits Einstein's definition. Just sayin'.



Agreed, but let us see what arises out of this rubble, if anything.

If trolls are not controlled, it is impossible for me to participate.

Not sulking, this is something practical that the old administrators will confirm.

They have contributed on the forum for good and bad, not sure what's in their minds but I would like to think that once a new forum is set up they would come there, every country has its fair share of trolls and serious posters, (me Included). but as I said, our difference aside we first have to make sure that all the data/information is safely transferred to the new forum along with its positive contributors.

Sorry, trolls can have their own sandbox elsewhere. Serious, intelligent members need a safe space to carry on with enriching respectful conversation.Personally I’d die of embarrassment if any of my peers IRL found out I’m a member of pdf. But the new forum needs to gain international respect so I can be proud to say I’m a member.

I think zero tolerance on serious defense related topics or serious topics in general is a good idea. But then, trolls attract other trolls and will bring down the reputation of the forum. Truly there are pearls of wisdom on PDF, some knowledgeable members have taken the time and effort to research a topic and provide fantastic insights but one has to sift through a pile of $hit to discover that nugget of pure gold.

Once upon a time we had great members like S2, Chogy a former F-15 pilot to name a few but they left and we haven’t attracted experienced professionals since then.Ask yourself, will a self respecting professional waste his/her time dealing with internet trolls?

As a veteran, internationally recognized troll, I propose the following rules which I know from experience will greatly improve the quality of the forum:

1. Rules which apply to the entire forum
   
   1. No unwarranted personal attacks on other posters.
   2. No attacks on religion, race, or nationality.
   3. No inciting/enraging/provoking other members to break the rules on conduct.
   4. No derailing existing threads with irrelevant topics (eg. ranting about politics on the JF-17 thread). Create another thread.
   5. No terrorist/murder threats or support for terrorism.
   6. No inciting illegal riots/damage to public or private property.
2. Rules which, in addition, apply to the Defence sub-forums (Army, Air Force, Navy, etc.)
   
   1. Discussion is strictly limited to military affairs.
      1. Politics, including but not limited to religious, racial, and/or national, are strictly forbidden. Exceptions can be made in the internal security section or when analyzing RELEVANT topics like East Pakistan, Kashmir, and Khalistan. However, all discussion must remain civil as stated in the forum-wide and political sub-forum's rules.
   2. Only members who have contributed for 30 days and have more than 100 posts are allowed to participate in the Kashmir sub-forum.
      1. Glorification or denial of war crimes/atrocities in Kashmir is forbidden.
3. Rules which, in addition, apply to the Political Section
   
   1. Insulting or inciting attacks on the civilian/non-political family members or children of politicians and military personnel, serving or retired, is forbidden.
   2. Name-calling of others (Youthia, Patwari, etc.) is banned.
   3. Baseless accusations - which serve to fuel the flames of emotion rather than provide constructive criticism - are forbidden.

Of course, the biggest factor will be whether these rules are enforced or not. PDF has a decent set of rules but enforcement of them has been non existent since 2022.

 

[VikingRaider]

@Bilal9 @VikingRaider @Bengal71 @leonblack08 @Arthur @AmiEktaKharapChele @F-6 enthusiast @saif and other Bangladeshis, please watch this space.
Thanks @waz and @Hyde for committing to continuity.

@Destranator bhai thanks for tagging me!

However that's great decision. As long as old PDF management team will continue without any Indian and Bangladeshi moderators, I think security of Bangladeshi users ( living in Bangladesh) will remain strict and more people from Bangladesh will be interested to continue!

Brother @waz , and brother @Hyde ,I implore you to read these old posts one more time!

Post in thread 'Calling All PDF Bangladesh Members - Mod Situation' https://pdf.defence.pk/threads/calling-all-pdf-bangladesh-members-mod-situation.662588/post-12258646

And

Post in thread 'Calling All PDF Bangladesh Members - Mod Situation' https://pdf.defence.pk/threads/calling-all-pdf-bangladesh-members-mod-situation.662588/post-12258804

And

Post in thread 'Calling All PDF Bangladesh Members - Mod Situation' https://pdf.defence.pk/threads/calling-all-pdf-bangladesh-members-mod-situation.662588/post-12258855

First three was posted by @Old School brother , and one was when he replied to me!

Finally even that troll @Nilgiri had the sense of safety of Bangladeshi users who always had a beef with us!

Post in thread 'Calling All PDF Bangladesh Members - Mod Situation' https://pdf.defence.pk/threads/calling-all-pdf-bangladesh-members-mod-situation.662588/post-12258776

Even if Bangladeshi moderators are living in western countries , still govt can get Bangladeshi users' detail from them by picking up their relatives living in Bangladesh!

From what I understand in the final time Hasina became so desperate that her gestapo forces are picking BNP folks' wives when they don't find the man who already fled his home for his safety!

There is no guarantee that she will not pick up any common Bangladeshi for criticizing her, specially when online forum users are very few in numbers compared to Facebook users!

This is the reality of Bangladesh nowadays!

So I implore to the old management team to continue with your old policy ( no Bangladeshi or Indian moderators in any section ) , so that our ( Bangladeshi users ) details always remain secure and never have any chance to surrender to Sheikh Hasina's gestapo force!


Always safety comes first , emotion is nothing compared to people's safety!

Thanks and best regards!

 

[VCheng]

Of course, the biggest factor will be whether these rules are enforced or not. PDF has a decent set of rules but enforcement of them has been non existent since 2022.

Well, the choices made by PDF management are clear and hence the results. As you sow ... ...

 

[Olympus81]

I don’t know what the trigger point of the authorities was but threads that celebrated the passing of our army personnels was really low.

It is one thing to be critical of the higher ups but criticism of military fighting on the borders should have been a no go.