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Airbus, Boeing Undecided On Indian Tanker Rebid

sudhir007

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Jul 6, 2009
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Airbus, Boeing Undecided On Indian Tanker Rebid | AVIATION WEEK

Airbus Military and Boeing remain undecided about participating in India’s program to buy six midair refuelers, which has a proposal deadline of Dec. 15.

“On the basis of our [past] experience, we are thoroughly analyzing and reviewing the situation,” says Barbara Kracht, vice president of communications at Airbus Military.

Boeing also has received the request for proposals (RFP) from the Indian government, “but not made a decision as yet to participate,” according to Vivek Lall, head of Boeing Defense, Space and Security in India. Should it decide to take part, Boeing could offer a variant of the KC-767 Tanker Transport.

India’s indecision led to the cancellation of a previous contract to buy A330-based refuelers from Airbus on Dec. 30 of last year (Aerospace DAILY, Jan. 12). The program was rebid in September 2010.

Given the much larger scope of the ongoing tanker replacement program in the U.S., an analyst says it is likely that both manufacturer’s interest in six refuelers for India could be waning.

Other contenders for India’s six Multirole Tanker Transport include Russia with the Il-78 and Israel Aerospace Industries, which recently began flight trials of the single Boeing 767-200ER that it converted to a multi-mission tanker transport configuration for the Colombian air force.

The new refueler needs a variety of interfaces and a true multirole capability, which the A330-200 can provide, says Peter Scoffham, vice president of defense capability marketing for Airbus Military. Airbus says the A330 Multirole Tanker Transport can be equipped with a combination of the aerial refueling boom system for receptacle-equipped receiver aircraft, Cobham 905E/805E under-wing refueling pods for probe-equipped receiver aircraft, and a universal aerial refueling receptacle system installation for self-refueling.

India has some concerns that, because negotiations began last year with Airbus Military for the A330 after the Il-78 was rejected for having an incomplete bid, prices are now known to competitors, a military official says.
 
“On the basis of our [past] experience, we are thoroughly analyzing and reviewing the situation,” says Barbara Kracht, vice president of communications at Airbus Military.

That should be taken very serious by MoD and the forces, because it clearly shows what many people in Europe thinks anyway, that we can't be taken serious in such deals and we scrap and re-issue such competition on and on (just like LUH competition also won by EADS/Eurocopter). We are playing with our reputation here, especially if we act totally confused like this! First set a competition with 2 possible competitors that are clearly in different classes, than when it's over talk with finance ministry that opposes the deal, instead of talking with them from the begining and setting the budget. Now they try anything to get the US into the competition too, because capabilitywise the only Boeing can bring something comparable to A330, but they don't really want to enter this competition.
If we go on like this and with the US tanker competition running for more than 100 tankers, where Boeing and Airbus are competing anyway, it is possible that Airbus backs out of our competition, to concentrate on that what with way higher value for them.
 
If A330 can bring down the price .. they are going to win surely... Airbus would have learnt this by now...

Why should they? If you won the competition and have the only capable product anyway, why should you reduce the price?
I mean if we can pay $500 to 600 million for each C17 transporter, how do MoD want to convince Airbus that we don't have half the money for such an important aircraft like a tanker?
 
Why should they? If you won the competition and have the only capable product anyway, why should you reduce the price?
I mean if we can pay $500 to 600 million for each C17 transporter, how do MoD want to convince Airbus that we don't have half the money for such an important aircraft like a tanker?

They shouldnt have participated first what do you say?... I am not sure whether CAP 5000 crores was announced earlier before the trials? like we did for MMRCA announcing $10^9
 
They shouldnt have participated first what do you say?... I am not sure whether CAP 5000 crores was announced earlier before the trials? like we did for MMRCA announcing $10^9

There was a figure reported and I'm sure that MoD had something in mind, at least when they got the RFPs from the vendors. So the fault is on MoDs side and if they go on like this, we will have only the Russian option left.
 
There was a figure reported and I'm sure that MoD had something in mind, at least when they got the RFPs from the vendors. So the fault is on MoDs side and if they go on like this, we will have only the Russian option left.

Was Airbus Response was within MoD's quotation?

Just saw a source which stated the Quotation was $1 billion.. Logically Airbus should have responded with a downgraded one which should have come within the budget... As there is a saying in Tamil "Kasu ketha Dosa" "Dosa size proportional to Money" ... but MoD should have also taken care when they received the quotation.. both are at fault...
 
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Was Airbus Response was within MoD's quotation?

Just saw a source which stated the Quotation was $1 billion.. Logically Airbus should have responded with a downgraded one which should have come within the budget... As there is a saying in Tamil "Kasu ketha Dosa" "Dosa size proportional to Money" ... but MoD should have also taken care when they received the quotation.. both are at fault...

Again too fast in conclusions, because we know that MoD/IAF was ready to pay the price although it was higher (latest livefist report says $300 million each), only finance ministry stopped it. So it was MoDs fault by not talking with them before the trials started and setting the budget too low.
What do you want to downgrade at a tanker?
 
Again too fast in conclusions, because we know that MoD/IAF was ready to pay the price although it was higher (latest livefist report says $300 million each), only finance ministry stopped it. So it was MoDs fault by not talking with them before the trials started and setting the budget too low.
What do you want to downgrade at a tanker?

Sirjee How do you assume we are ready to pay more?....And here you are looking from only one angle.. please see from a different angle.. You have already fixed that it is MoD which is at fault.. MoD is at fault accepted.. but i am saying it is not only MoD... MoD did what is good for the country hoping things will work (seeing the AirCraft carrier and Submarine deals).. but Finance rejected (Unfortunately & obvious ... it gave its concern and explanation) so Airbus should not cry because its price is 60% more than the tender.. Totally unacceptable.. If you are in purchase department or if you own a company you can understand how much it hurts

if the Quota is $10^9 .. is nt the company equally responsibile to respond with a product according to the bid? may be a swing of +-10 % is accepted .. Oke lets take an example for your understanding.. consider you are Marketing director of a company... You have a product.. when you get the RFI , wont you see how much your total product is worth ?.. if it does not match you will try to remove some of the over whelming features to bring down the cost.. wont you? .. If you feel that RFI is not worth for your product you wont respond .. am i right?... wont Airbus will not have this minimum common sense?.. How can you justify yourself to quote 60% more than the tender?... And when IL76 gave the price less that 5000 crores how can you say MoD is wrong in fixing the price ? If Airbus feels it is less it shouldnt not have participated in the First Case.. and the deal would have gone to IL76.. at least there wouldn't have been any delay further

A downgraded tanker i mean to provide systems which satisfies only the requirement(So that there can be apple is to apple comparison).. And charge us extra if we feel we need those extra over whelming system what Airbus is offering.. which would have been logical...
 
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Boeing Offers B737-700 AWACS Platform; Remains Undecided on Mid Air Refuelers Deal | India Defence

Boeing Vice President and India Chief Mr. Vivek Lall confirmed in an interview to Press Trust of India that the American defense and aerospace major has briefed the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy of the B737-700 AWACS platform in response to a Request for Information (RFI) issued by the Ministry of Defence.

The AWACS platform provides for long distance beyond horizon radar coverage and it encompasses both the B 737-700 aircraft platform with a variety of aircraft control and advanced radar systems. Mr. Vivek Lall also confirmed that Boeing remains undecided on participating in the Air Force Mid Air Refuelers deal.

Both the AWACS and Mid Air Refuelers Deal are expected to be over USD $1 billion. The Indian armed forces looking at a possible USD $50 billion worth of purchases in the next five years.

"Boeing has briefed the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force about Airborne Early Warning and Command (AEW&C) aircraft on the basis of Request for Information (RFI). However, no Request for Proposals (RFP) has been issued as yet."
...
"Boeing has received RFP for IAF's requirement of refuelers. We are currently evaluating the RFP to determine whether to bid or not."
 

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