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ABP India Summit 2023: Javed Akhtar Saw "No Visible Poverty" in Lahore, Pakistan

like I have said before cope with it- islam is part of a cultrual idnetity
They coudnt do that to Gagentics where they ruled for so long, with proper control down to ditrict, and village levels but did so in Punjab, Kashmmir sindh where they got thier soldiers, genrals, governors, ministers from, many "foreign" muslim kingdoms were punjabi clan leaders , a land where they were out of line were harassed by local clan raids, where the fights lasted till all the clansmen died
doesnt make sense to me, doesnt sound like the kinda people you tuning em into - Mr. Bihari monkey

Talking as if gagentics went into any of these areas
Multiple time into afghan territoty, defeated the mongols multiple times, Jatt generals campaigned into Persia and took over their cities


Bihari junkie has to go all the way back to frickin Mauryans to find an empire while I am listing much more recent examples, not going back to BC's lmao - even here it woudnt be possible without the political mind of Chankaya- where is he from?...
Mauryans and guptas did rule till Iran and Afghanistan
The very fact that 65% of The Punjab was forced to accept islam proves that your ancestors were conquered and humiliated by Afghans , Turks and Persians
 
ofcourse all of asia and europe and beyond
This is the map from wikimedia showing territory controlled by Mauryans
IMG_4802.png

The wife of Chandragupt Maurya (Helena) was Greek she was daughter of Selucus.
 
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Within few years this old part of Lahore will dramatically change. The more they restore old homes, the more there will be tourism and economic prosperity.

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I really wish they could open up a national organisation that preserves our historical architecture and monuments, I've heard people damage and ruin them, these things should be kept in perfect condition and preserved as history is like the soul of a nation.

Lahore has a lot to offer in this regard.
 
Founder of this empire Ghazi Malik was a clan leader of South Punjab according to his own biography tughlaqnama
The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.
Sindh was almost always ruled by Sindhi clans or Sindhi speaking people for most of it's history- unlike Gagentics
The first indigenous dynasty of Sindh would be the Rai dynasty followed by the Chach dynasty. The Chach dynasty was overthrown by the invading Arabs. Later, we see the Soomras and Sammas ruling Sindh who although indigenous, were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. They are no different than several independent Hindu kingdoms in Rajputana who at a later point, although ruled themselves but were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. The later dynasties such as the Arghun, Kalhora and Talpur weren't indigenous Sindhis and they too continued remaining vassals.
So your statement is off the mark.
And was last to fall under the British control in 1843 and in 1870s started it's guerilla war, freedom struggle which continued until Sindh joined Pakistan- again unlike Gagentics
It hardly matters when it fell under British control, being on the Western side of the subcontinent it's hardly surprising that it fell under British control very late. Anyway, it was hardly as much an important province for the British as compared to rest of India.
So there's nothing 'unlike Gangetics' about it. Gangetics did the 1857 Uprising as well if you haven't forgotten. Much of the roots of the Indian independence movement were in present day India.
 
The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.
Dude, I researched it that's why I am saying it, I wouldn't say it just because I felt like it

tughlaqnama his biography written by ameer khusro (he himself a very famous personality of his Time) called him a clan leader who rose up through the ranks and in the beginning of his adult life was a local nobody more than anything - this biography was written when Ghazi Malik was alive btw afaik

So if Ameer khusro is making a claim on Ghazi Malik than it was probably approved by his son (tughlaqnama was written when Ghazi Malik was alive- amir khusro died in 1325)
RDT_20230306_0044388242066216102226250.jpg

This is based on tughlaqnama written during Ghazi Maliks reign

- ameer khusro even wrote a famous Punjabi Vaad ballod for him and presented it to him
If he was not a clan leader - why would someone write a poem for him in a folk language like Punjabi - not Persian or Hindi or Urdu - you know what I mean?- this war poem is part of punjabi literary history

A- tughlaq was not his ancestoral name
If he was genuine a turk - he'd use his name not adopt one
"Literary, numismatic and epigraphic evidence makes it clear that Tughluq was the Sultan's personal name, and not an ancestral designation"

B- he was not part of old balban rulling class court- so the turk slave, Jutt lady's child claim also goes out of the window, he hated the mongols so was not a Mongol origin, he was not a turk cause if he was he wouldn't need to adopt a turk name- he'd use his own turk name , he was born in dipalpur or didn't come from foreign lands this is not contested for the most part
GridArt_20230301_234605544 (1).jpg

Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name

C- biggest reason he was supported by khokhars in his rise to power - his coronation ceremony was done by khokhar clan chief, he placed the dastaar or crown on Ghazi Maliks head when they conquered Delhi, his millitary support at the beginning was almost exclusively from clans of Punjab

Tughlaq dynasties coronations ceremonies always took place in Baba farids shrine- he is kinda like a parton saint of Punjab respected by all Punjabis from all faiths, a good chunk of his poetry is in Sikh holy book for example, Hindus had respect for baba Farid

They used "dastaar bandi" as their crown- succession ceremony and it always took place in Baba farids shrine

Why would a turk do that? What is he gaining from this? Nothing, it has to be genuine love for the saint which I highly doubt a non Punjabi, that too a turk or Persian would have for baba Fareed

Come on @Maula Jatt you are better than this
He disrespected me first - deserves it
 
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The origin of Ghazi Malik is contested and although he was born in Punjab, calling him of local origin would be a big stretch. Most sources state that he was a Turkish slave who rose up the ranks.

The first indigenous dynasty of Sindh would be the Rai dynasty followed by the Chach dynasty. The Chach dynasty was overthrown by the invading Arabs. Later, we see the Soomras and Sammas ruling Sindh who although indigenous, were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. They are no different than several independent Hindu kingdoms in Rajputana who at a later point, although ruled themselves but were still vassals to the powers in Delhi. The later dynasties such as the Arghun, Kalhora and Talpur weren't indigenous Sindhis and they too continued remaining vassals.
So your statement is off the mark.
@DESERT FIGHTER would know more about it but more than half of Sindhis have Baloch origins - zardari is literally a Baloch for example no one can dare call him a non Sindhi or foreign

So Baloch origin clans kingdoms would most definitely be considered "Sindhi" they promoted Sindhi language, identity

How the hell can you call talpur dynasty non Sindhi lol?
Hosh Muhammad sheedi famous Sindhi war heroes last words when fighting Brits

Marsun, marsun Sindh na desun - we will rather die than give Sindh to other's

He was fighting for talpurs - according to you they were not Sindhis yet thier battle cry was literally them saying I'd rather die than give up my motherland of Sindh - your definition makes no sense

I don't think you quite understand our region or how interconnected, interlinked we are and were historically
It hardly matters when it fell under British control, being on the Western side of the subcontinent it's hardly surprising that it fell under British control very late. Anyway, it was hardly as much an important province for the British as compared to rest of India.
So there's nothing 'unlike Gangetics' about it. Gangetics did the 1857 Uprising as well if you haven't forgotten. Much of the roots of the Indian independence movement were in present day India.
It fell in 1843 and just couple decades later started it's guerilla war freedom struggle - that's what matters rest if irrelevant

"Indian" independence doesn't matter as Sindhis are Pakistanis and have nothing to do with Indian struggles, Indian struggles are Indian affairs not Sindhi affair- Sindhis were fighting for their independence and later played a pivotal role in Pakistans independence - that's the only thing that's important to me
 
tughlaqnama his biography written by ameer khusro (he himself a very famous personality of his Time) called him a clan leader who rose up through the ranks and in the beginning of his adult life was a local nobody more than anything - this biography was written when Ghazi Malik was alive btw afaik

So if Ameer khusro is making a claim on Ghazi Malik than it was probably approved by his son (tughlaqnama was written when Ghazi Malik was alive- amir khusro died in 1325)
There are contrasting sources as to the origin of Ghazi Malik. However, majority of the sources states that he was of non-local origin. Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find a Sassanid genealogy which was also the official position of the Delhi Sultanate. The contemporary Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta states that Tughluq belonged to the Qarauna tribe of Turks. There is another theory that he was the son of a Turkish slave and Jat mother. So it's very difficult to truly understand his origin but it's still very unlikely for him to be a local because the political climate at that time tended to favor the Turks/Persians/Mongols, basically all non-Indians.
RDT_20230306_0044388242066216102226250.jpg

This is based on tughlaqnama written during Ghazi Maliks reign
This doesn't say much, any non-Indian too can be the chieftain of a tribe. There's also no clear mention of the tribe's name.
- ameer khusro even wrote a famous Punjabi Vaad ballod for him and presented it to him
If he was not a clan leader - why would someone write a poem for him in a folk language like Punjabi - not Persian or Hindi or Urdu - you know what I mean?- this war poem is part of punjabi literary history
There have been multiple instances ballads for rulers have been written in a language which unintelligible for the ruler. The language of administration under the Tughlaqs was Persian, not Punjabi. Did he promote Punjabi? Nope.
B- he was not part of old balban rulling class court- so the turk slave, Jutt lady's child claim also goes out of the window, he hated the mongols so was not a Mongol origin, he was not a turk cause if he was he wouldn't need to adopt a turk name- he'd use his own turk name , he was born in dipalpur or didn't come from foreign lands this is not contested for the most part
GridArt_20230301_234605544 (1).jpg

Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name
He probably lived in Dipalpur for long enough to love that place. Like the Mughals loved Delhi. In those days, there were no planes using which they could go to their native place at will even though they could be 2nd or 3rd gen migrants.
However, based on this text, it's highly likely he wasn't a Mongol.
Why he adopted a court name probably to appease the establishment of Delhi made up of turks, Persians etc this I don't know but what we know is that tughlaq was not his ancestoral name

C- biggest reason he was supported by khokhars in his rise to power - his coronation ceremony was done by khokhar clan chief, he placed the dastaar or crown on Ghazi Maliks head when they conquered Delhi, his millitary support at the beginning was almost exclusively from clans of Punjab
Many Rajputs too supported different dynasties in Delhi. So it hardly matters from whom he got the support. The different tribes will support the person who might look after their interests, that's it.
Tughlaq dynasties coronations ceremonies always took place in Baba farids shrine- he is kinda like a parton saint of Punjab respected by all Punjabis from all faiths, a good chunk of his poetry is in Sikh holy book for example, Hindus had respect for baba Farid

They used "dastaar bandi" as their crown- succession ceremony and it always took place in Baba farids shrine

Why would a turk do that? What is he gaining from this? Nothing, it has to be genuine love for the saint which I highly doubt a non Punjabi, that too a turk or Persian would have for baba Fareed
Again, a very tenuous argument. Yes, Fariduddin Ganjshakar (Baba Farid) was a Punjabi but he was part of the Chishti Sufi order. His own spiritual mentor of the Chishti order was Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki who was born in Fergana Valley. His spiritual successor was Nizamuddin Auliya who was of Sayyid ancestry.
The earlier Delhi rulers such as Iltutmish too patronized the Sufi order before Baba Farid. So there's nothing special about Tughlaqs patronizing a 'Punjabi' saint because he's actually patronizing the Sufi order which the earlier Delhi rulers too had done.

To sum it up, with the data that we have, it would be a big stretch to assume that Ghazi Malik was a local. There's just no explicit mention anywhere about Ghazi Malik being of local origin. Nor did he want to associate his origin with the local people.
 
@DESERT FIGHTER would know more about it but more than half of Sindhis have Baloch origins - zardari is literally a Baloch for example no one can dare call him a non Sindhi or foreign

So Baloch origin clans kingdoms would most definitely be considered "Sindhi" they promoted Sindhi language, identity

How the hell can you call talpur dynasty non Sindhi lol?
Hosh Muhammad sheedi famous Sindhi war heroes last words when fighting Brits

Marsun, marsun Sindh na desun - we will rather die than give Sindh to other's

He was fighting for talpurs - according to you they were not Sindhis yet thier battle cry was literally them saying I'd rather die than give up my motherland of Sindh - your definition makes no sense
The Talpur dynasty have Baloch origin, that's a given. Now them adopting Sindhi culture, customs and language is a different thing. They might definitely be Sindhi in their outlook but weren't ethnically Sindhi is what I wanted to say.
It fell in 1843 and just couple decades later started it's guerilla war freedom struggle - that's what matters rest if irrelevant
Please provide good sources for that. Even if they did their revolt, I'm not going to belittle their struggle against the British.
Anyway, I'm not sure whether you have heard of the 1857 Uprising. Or of multiple anti-British insurgencies in India from different regions post 1857.
"Indian" independence doesn't matter as Sindhis are Pakistanis and have nothing to do with Indian struggles, Indian struggles are Indian affairs not Sindhi affair- Sindhis were fighting for their independence and later played a pivotal role in Pakistans independence - that's the only thing that's important to me
Dude, at that time, the whole region was part of the Indian subcontinent and identified with the concept of India. The idea of Pakistan was formulated much later. The advocate of your country belonged to the so called 'Gangetics'. The Indian National Congress party which demanded for freedom had its origin in mainland India. Have you heard about INA? About Subhash Chandra Bose? Bhagat Singh? Chandra Shekhar Azad? Ghadar Movement?
 
Whe I visited pindi at a particular part of the city, a busy road I saw a group of poor individuals begging who looked similar. I was informed they are from the same family and made it as a business to beg.
 
There are contrasting sources as to the origin of Ghazi Malik.
but only one stands up to scrutiny rest do not , that's why it's the best one
However, majority of the sources states that he was of non-local origin.
Nope - tughlaqnama is the original source and he was born in Punjab around dipalpur area according to amir khusro who wrote his biography when he was alive
Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find a Sassanid genealogy which was also the official position of the Delhi Sultanate.
And
"However this can be dismissed as flattery. This is clear from the fact that another courtier Amir Khusrau, in his Tughluq Nama, states that Tughluq described himself as an unimportant man ("awara mard") in his early career. Tughlaq Nama declares Tughlaq to have been a minor chief of humble origins"

Another red flag
"Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find"

If he was thier won't be a need to "attempt "
The contemporary Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta states that Tughluq belonged to the Qarauna tribe of Turks.
And it was wrong too

"but the claim is not corroborated by any other contemporary source"

B- they're a Mongol tribe not a turk one
"who are mentioned by the Rauzatus Safa and Wassat as a Mongol tribe"

He hated the mongols- he wanted thier served to him and defeated the mongols 22 times
GridArt_20230301_234605544 (1) (1).jpg

- he can't be self hating Mongol , can he?
There is another theory that he was the son of a Turkish slave the earlier emperor Balban and Jat mother.

And that too is a wrong theory
A- " although this claim is contested due to the lack of contemporary accounts which supports this claim"

B- "supports Amir Khusrau's (again this is the trustworthy source as he wrote all of that during Ghazi Maliks reign) assertion that Tughluq was not a Balbanid slave, because he was not part of the old Sultanate household or the nobility of Balban"

So it's very difficult to truly understand his origin but it's still very unlikely for him to be a local because the political climate at that time tended to favor the Turks/Persians/Mongols, basically all non-Indians.
This is where you are wrong
What's 100% true is that he was carried to his throne by khokhar tribesmen - that's not contested by anyone

If the climate didn't favor them how did they become powerful enough to literally change a King of the Delhi sultanate without any involvement from Turks, Persians, mongols etc - makes no sense

This doesn't say much, any non-Indian too can be the chieftain of a tribe. There's also no clear mention of the tribe's name.
He was born in dipalpur or that general area according to tughlaqnama - no turk tribe was living there except for punjabi tribes, turk tribes only mixed into Afghanistan that too much later than the time period of Malik

So that tribe had to be a native tribe, as no other tribe existed in that general region - his tribe wasn't mentioned cause it was not a powerful clan and probably died - 100s of clans have died out in the region so that's not exactly weird

There have been multiple instances ballads for rulers have been written in a language which unintelligible for the ruler. The language of administration under the Tughlaqs was Persian, not Punjabi. Did he promote Punjabi? Nope.
Amir khusro was a Persian, Punjabi was far from his language, according to you Ghazi Malik was Turk or something

First vaar poem that amir khusro wrote to honor his victory was in Punjabi - why would he do that

You're marahati, your poet is a Persian, your court language is Tamil

First poem to honor you - is in bangali - does that make any sense to you?

Btw court language doesn't matter, Persian was court language of every empire for so long even non Muslim one's sometimes
He probably lived in Dipalpur for long enough to love that place.
He was born in dipalpur or that general vicinity
Like the Mughals loved Delhi. In those days, there were no planes using which they could go to their native place at will even though they could be 2nd or 3rd gen migrants.

However, based on this text, it's highly likely he wasn't a Mongol.
Yes he wasn't a Mongol and he wasn't a turk either as he had to adopt a turk name- he was original Turk he wouldn't a name
Many Rajputs too supported different dynasties in Delhi. So it hardly matters from whom he got the support. The different tribes will support the person who might look after their interests, that's it.
True
Again, a very tenuous argument. Yes, Fariduddin Ganjshakar (Baba Farid) was a Punjabi but he was part of the Chishti Sufi order. His own spiritual mentor of the Chishti order was Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki who was born in Fergana Valley. His spiritual successor was Nizamuddin Auliya who was of Sayyid ancestry.
It wasn't just respect

They held all of Thier coronation ceremonies in his shrine, they didn't have a crown - they had dastaar bandi - that's a Sufi tradition specific to this region

Why would a turk do that?
The earlier Delhi rulers such as Iltutmish too patronized the Sufi order before Baba Farid. So there's nothing special about Tughlaqs patronizing a 'Punjabi' saint because he's actually patronizing the Sufi order which the earlier Delhi rulers too had done.

To sum it up, with the data that we have, it would be a big stretch to assume that Ghazi Malik was a local. There's just no explicit mention anywhere about Ghazi Malik being of local origin. Nor did he want to associate his origin with the local people.
Of all the theories this one's makes the most sense and claims line up unlike the Balban Turk, Mongol claim's, new arrival with jalal ud din etc - all of these claims have some issues that don't line up- this one everything lines up this is the right one

"However, this genealogical link with the Punjab paved the way for several other linkages, such his brother's marriage with the daughter of a Punjabi Bhatti chief, the patronization of the Sufi shrine of Pakpattan, and the support of Punjabi Khokhar tribesmen who were central to Ghazi Malik's rise to monarchy. Tughlaq's court poet, Amir Khusro, wrote a war ballad in the Punjabi language for the Sultan, the Vaar, describing his rise to the throne against Khusrau Shah.This was the earliest known Vaar in Punjabi poetry. The later leading Tughlaq Sultans also continued to merge the symbols of the Baba Farid shrine and the royal court by weaving the Punjabi Muslim Dastar-bandi ceremony with succession to the throne"

There's literally no reason for a turk to do that except the fact he wasn't one
 
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There is a possibility that Afghanistan's lower rate of cousin marriages may have something to do with this (infant mortality).
In U.K.:
  • For most ethnic groups, immaturity-related conditions are the main cause of infant mortality, however, for Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnic groups the main cause is congenital anomalies.
Really sonny in Afghan culture cousin marriage is less common then Pakistan??

Talk about WhatsApp university
 

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