-blitzkrieg-
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Most of the pandits have changed their family names from 'pandit' to 'sheikh' (a muslim clergyman)
e.g. Sheikh Rasheed a prominent Pakistani politician.
e.g. Sheikh Rasheed a prominent Pakistani politician.
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When animosity is finished between Pakistan and India,i would surely visit my jat brothers.In Pakpattan district where most of them are, they are Jatts. It's confusing for many of these Bar tribes, as some of them are called Jatts others Rajputs. Now many of them only identify with their clan e.g Kharrals of Pakpattan/Sahiwal only identify
as Kharral and not Jat or Rajput.
Interesting thing about these Bar tribes is that they were nomadic or pastoral until the 19th century when most of the forested regions of the Bar were cleared by the British.
I think they are the original Sindhi Jats as described in the Chachnama as the population of Sindh was described as mostly made up of Buddhist Jatts or Meds who were nomadic/pastoral. Their clans are usually only Muslim exclusive as well (like Sial, Wattoo, Dogar etc.)
Once I was travelling by motorway to gujranwala from Lahore.
Gave lift to a motorway police inspector ... during our chitchat.. he revealed that he was from Pindi bhattian and a Kharral...
Asked him the same question.. he replied that they are Rajputs but many others call themselves Jatts.. probably because they have been marrying among Jatts and living with them since ages.
Coming back to the Kharrals , of Kamalia, the area of the famous Ahmed Khan Kharral ... well they are proud of being Rajputs rather than Jatts etc...
Id personally think that there are several sub clans that either have same names to other clans ... or have some have intermingles with other groups..
For example the Khokars.
Half of them claim to be Rajputs, others claim to be Jatts and than some claim to be a seperate tribe..
Now the friend I'm talking about is from a well off political,(large) landowning family... PML Q... so I doubt that they just migrated to the region,claimed to be Rajputs and adopted Seriki.
Yes sir we follow jathera.Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf
Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.
I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.
No Jatt uses "Rai" as a surname, only Rajputs do;Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf
Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.
I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.
Hazrat Bin Qasim abolished hindu caste system in sindh valley.
No Jatt uses "Rai" as a surname, only Rajputs do;
By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef. Saadat Ali Khan, a prominent Kharal, was granted a fiefdom in this locality by Aurangzeb .
Same article:
https://www.dawn.com/news/802754
They themselves claim to be Rajputs and use a Rajput surname.
He is no awan he is a ButtSounds like Bullshyt!
Makes no sense, when you Panjabis take pride in surnames like Rana,Raja,Sandhu,Chatha,Cheema etc and claim you are discriminated against ? In what way exactly ?
Awans aren't Brahmins or Jatts... they claim descent from Hazrat Ali... can be found in Panjab and even Afghanistan... a big tribe, nawab of kalabagh being their chief of sorts..
Although no proof of it (their links with Hazrat Ali), but there are no Hindu or Sikh awans..

Boss i too am a Sheikh Kashmiri bus chasky ley raha hoanMost of the pandits have changed their family names from 'pandit' to 'sheikh' (a muslim clergyman)
e.g. Sheikh Rasheed a prominent Pakistani politician.
@krashRai is a title used by Rajputs of Panjab and Haryana ...Rai is just a title, the Rai dynasty of Sindh who were Buddhists also used this while being Rajput and Buddhist is an oxymoron. Dawn article is hardly credible, as well tracing ancestory to Ramyana. These are likely nomadic/pastoral Jats or Meds of Sindh and South Punjab who were Buddhists as described in the Chachnama.
The only people in Punjab who use Rai are Kharrals, who speak a Lahnda dialect and are only present in a few districts in Punjab.Rai is a title used by Rajputs of Panjab and Haryana ...
Rajputs and Buddhists are not interchangeable.
However Hinduism was never followed with much zeal in Panjab or Sindh ...
The link with karan... is claimed by none other than the Kharals ... there is also a registered Rajput forums and even a registered forum by kharrals of jhumra..
The only people in Punjab who use Rai are Kharrals, who speak a Lahnda dialect and are only present in a few districts in Punjab.
Rajput is a varna title, being Buddhist and Rajput is a straight up oxymoron rather than 'not being interchangeable'. As well as the mlechha description of Punjab in Mahbharta and other Hindu texts.
Many of them also claim descent from some vague place in Rajasthan or UP, but that is hardly credible either, especially due to genetics.
Nepal also had similiar culture as Panjab and Sindh when it came to brahmanism...Rai Ahmed Khan Kharral was from Jhamra (district Lyallpur/Faisalabad) not Kamalia.
The British account of the 1857 rebellion describes them as thus
"“In the district around are numerous Mohammedan tribes of Jut origin, at present degenerated into cattlefeeders and cattle-stealers, who nevertheless retained somewhat of their ancestral love of war and plunder; hundreds and thousands oh whom wanted only the opportunity and encouragement to spring up armed—for though nominally disarmed, what Punjabee does not know where to lay hands on his weapon in time of need?---and at the first sound of the war—cry, “Deen! Deen! (religion), in Moslem fanaticism, they would have made Mooltan their rallying-point.”
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/HistoryPStudies/PDF-FILES/13-Saeed_V28_no2.pdf
Mirza of Mirza-Sahiban was also described as Kharral Jat (Wanjhal Khan Kharal was his name).
The Joiyas of Lodhran/Vehari region are Lakhwera or Daultana and they were part of the nomadic Bar tribes who were pastoralists until the 19th century when canal irrigation in the dry Bar tract was started by the British and they settled down.
I think they are best described as their own thing, the dialect that they speak too is Lahnda similar to Jhangochi, as well as being nomadic/pastoral and having curious traditions e.g
"The Lakhwera, Bhadera, Ghazi Khanana,Kulhera, Daulatana, Kamera and Manghersepts and a few others, observe the vinayak ceremony. This consists in slaughtering two rams (ghattas) and making a pulao (with rice cooked in ghi) of the flesh. This is given in charity in the name of their ancestor Allahditta who single-handed resisted a party of 50 Baloch who tried to raid the cattle he was tending in the Cholistan. Allahditta was killed, but his bravery is commemorated in the winaik and his tomb in the Taj-Sarwar is greatly frequented by the tribe."
This is somewhat similar to jathera/ancestor worship.
I am from district Pakpattan, here many Manj Rajputs ,who use 'Rana' title, from East Punjab settled after partition and they do not identify with the local Kharrals and Joiyas. Identifying as something matters for little, anyone can identify as anything.Dude come with me, il take you to their villages and you can meet em.. and ask them if they are Rajputs or not...
Minus some from the pindi bhattian area!
It's not the varna system which is exclusive to Hinduism. And in this context, it does.Islam also doesn't recognise castes ? Yet you see people using em?
Religion has nothing to do with ones "heritage".
Meanwhile the Manj of Sheikhupura only use "Manj" as surname.I am from district Pakpattan, here many Manj Rajputs ,who use 'Rana' title, from East Punjab settled after partition and they do not identify with the local Kharrals and Joiyas. Identifying as something matters for little, anyone can identify as anything.
It's not the varna system which is exclusive to Hinduism. And in this context, it does.
"[Serious]"
I saw this image on reddit few hours ago and do it have sparked number of questions in my mind.
![]()
These results the people Indian army have killed in Kashmir. And i hve noticed that majority of them are actually Kashmiri Pundits who converted to Islam.
1) why these brahmins converts to Islam ? And when ?
2) how Muslims view these converted brahmins? Do they get respect in Pakistani or Kashmiri society?
3) how muslims view these muslims who have "pundit" surname specifically?
4) do they intermarry with other muslims ? Do they have their own biradaris?
5) how Muslims brahmins view their heritage? And sanskrit.
6) how Pashtuns,Baloch view these brahmins? And Rajputs?
We dont have muslim brahmins in north india beside kashmir and Pakistani punjab so I posted this in Pakistani history section.
@Mian Babban and @DESERT FIGHTER being a pashtun and Baloch your answers are much needed and highly valuable/ credible for us.
@waz keep this thread clean please.

They use Rana as the title and Manj as the surname.Meanwhile the Manj of Sheikhupura only use "Manj" as surname.
Also the Rajputs who migrated in 47.. don't marry among the local Rajputs... heck even the Panjabi Rajputs don't mingle with the rohatki aka haryanvi Rajputs.
Jigar ab agar bata doan kay merey pardada bhi convert hoye thay to inhon nay ajeeb sawal start karney hain acha nahi hy key bus chaskey loMy great-grandfather, Pandit Mansanath, converted to Islam after studying the religion under a local Muslim scholar in Srinagar. In those times Muslim scholars and teachers were given the title of a 'Sheikh' and thus it became a very respected title within the Muslim community. So when my great-grandfather converted he changed his surname from Pandit to 'Sheikh'. This practice became the practice for many converts, so much so that there came a time when the surname 'Sheikh' signified that you were a convert (as alluded to by @-blitzkrieg-). This is the reason why this particular surname is found across pretty much all the ethnicities of the region and has no ethnic or tribal significance, as compared to most surnames in the region.
1) We converted because our ancestors thought Islam to be the true path.
2) We are not seen as Muslim Pundits or converts at all. We have taken new identities void of religious connotations, e.g. I am a Kashmiri and that is all I am known by if at all. I identify as a Pakistani with Kashmiri ethnicity, period.
3) I haven't met a Muslim with 'Pundit' as their surname. As mentioned before, we changed our surnames. We are however seen as any other Muslims, at most we are distinguished by our ethnicity, e.g. Kashmiri.
4) We used to try to marry within other Kashmiris but it wasn't a strict rule at all, it was instead just a preference due to cultural reasons. Over the years this preference has become even less important. For example, one of my uncles married a non-Kashmiri. I come from a strict Kashmiri lineage but have married a Rajput. No one really cares enough for it to have any effect. Our biradaris were strictly based on ethnicity and weren't strict biradaris at all. Kashmiris are known to be more open minded to assimilation and integration, at least on this side of the border. Within the Kashmiri biradari there is no distinction between former Brahmin Kashmiris and former non-Brahmin Kashmiris.
5) We mostly see our heritage through our ethnic ancestry without any religious colours to it. The modern Pakistani though is increasingly more interested and accepting of his/her pre-Islam heritage.
6) Like I mentioned before, no one really cares for our Brahmin past, not even us. And I am an example of a Muslim from Brahmin ancestry who married into Rajputs. My maternal side (also formerly Kashmiri Brahmins) is heavily married into Balochs and Pashtuns. Most of them moved to Quetta after moving from Kashmir.
ps: Nawaz Sharif is from the Lahori Kashmiri Biradari as well. Don't know if he comes from Brahmin roots or not. @Zibago does though, haha.
Sheikh sahab, aap baaz na ana![]()
