A Pakistani soldier’s Eid

[JonAsad]

Maybe leader didn't saw the video and just posted the crap-
I think he just assumed that soldiers are celebrating eid in hardship for that the thread is all about- and failed to notice the fresh dead bodies of shaheeds lying there-

i am just saying if not- shame on leader-

 

[Leader]

Maybe leader didn't saw the video and just posted the crap-
I think he just assumed that soldiers are celebrating eid in hardship for that the thread is all about- and failed to notice the fresh dead bodies of shaheeds lying there-

i am just saying if not- shame on leader-

Yes I didnt see the video, nor do I need to see and get emotional.

I read this

What do they know about the soldier on ground?

Do they know the magnitude of the pain that passes through one on witnessing the brutal death of a brother?

Do they know how a soldier copes with holding a friend in his arms while he dies, and the baggage that comes when he asks you to take care of his old parents and his little boy who was born just few months ago?

Do they have any idea what it is like spending months on the barren mountains and eating grass when logistics are cut off?

They have no clue.

The only thing the media is good at is criticizing people who do their jobs, and applauding corrupt politicians who either pay them or threaten them. There are always limitations which need to be understood; the budget the army gets doesn’t afford high-tech equipment which contemporary armies are privileged to have. However, the performance of Pakistani men on ground can’t be matched with any army in the world.

the world is not divided as anti-army and pro-army..there is much to it...

did you guys ever heard anyone from 0.5 million men saying that our nation has sacrificed so much to keep the army up and running ? so it got to be 180 million to bow before 0.5 million, just because they got a gun or they have chosen the life of army in Pakistan calling it a sacrifice for Nation ???

Noone denies their hard duty in frontiers, but kindly dont give me emotional bumps !!

 

[kas786]

I don't get it. What is your point, Leader?

 

[VelocuR]

Feel sorry for people like you.

Sick. In my opinion. No salary can compensate the hardships these guy go through. Please get over your 9-6 mentality. Not every job works in that manner.

Loss of identity, cant decide how much "liberal" to go for..
How much "anti-establishment" views much be propagated to promote the party's agenda.
Be more PTI than IK himself.

@leader, sorry sir u hav lost my respect and of many members....

I disapprove that even Imran khan if he is talking against Pak Army......

I guess sitting in the comfort of a climate controlled room , punching cheap banter into a keypad doesn't cost a dime.

@Leader. We have got a family. We have got a Eid. They (our family) have got a Eid. We sacrifice our day of joy and happiness so that you guys can have a pleasant time. A pleasant time abusing us. Imagine if we come back with our families who will do anything to get us back with them. And enemy strikes. There is a lot of bloodshed and chaos everywhere on the day of Eid.

Members of your family die and you loose your loved one. How would you feel? So better shut up. We are putting our lives on line so that others can live in joy. We are dying here.. and still getting abused..

A Lt. gets 11K Ruppee monthly. But on operational and rough terrain, we pay him 28K.
Let's say I pay your 32K. Will you go and defend your nation? No. You need to have guts to do that.. If you dont have the balls to do it, dont bark on those who do.

Over and out.

You just lost any respect I had for you.

Im am most surprised at you post.
All i can say is if it wasn't for brave soldiers of our land to be honest we wouldn't have a Pakistan. The reputation of the army of Pakistan is renowned throughout the world and is well respected. I am eternally grateful for the way they have conducted themselves. What we must remember is these people put their lives on the line every time they put the uniform on. We can come on here and type a few words showing patriotism but to put ones life on the line is something we should all offer our humble gratitude.
Thank you to all the brave men and women.

just makes me wonder if this statement was made in any part of the "Land of the dreams" then what would have happened to that person.

going by his bigoted example one shouldnt even thank any doctor (even the ones working in Shaukat Khanum) since they are getting paid for their jobs. I think this leader guy is having a "Mr420 moment" who I think is currently banned

@ Leader,

dude you were one of my fav members here but you lost my respect to day.

i am just saying if not- shame on leader-

Everyone knows he is bad leader, hope you got these messages from the respected members. It is going to be fun to throw you to the unsafe protected zone to let you defend yourself from militants attacks. You will start moaning to request Army protection???

Hope you don't insult Army next time!!!

 

[Ganymede]

Yes I didnt see the video, nor do I need to see and get emotional.

I read this



the world is not divided as anti-army and pro-army..there is much to it...

did you guys ever heard anyone from 0.5 million men saying that our nation has sacrificed so much to keep the army up and running ? so it got to be 180 million to bow before 0.5 million, just because they got a gun or they have chosen the life of army in Pakistan calling it a sacrifice for Nation ???

Noone denies their hard duty in frontiers, but kindly dont give me emotional bumps !!

you know, i have been an avid follower of this forum for quite a while now and i must say that i have never been more disappointed by a fellow Pakistanis comment until i read yours. i don't usually participate in discussions but after reading what you wrote, i felt compelled to express what i feel.
you continue to badmouth the very army you owe your freedom to. lets puts things into perspective, imagine the army comes back from the borders and instead of 0.5 mill, a solitary number is kept, how long do you think your country would last? i hope you realize your country is in a state of war and sacrifices are being made daily so that people of Pakistan can live their lives without fear of getting annihilated by terrorists. you are right when you say that the common man is making a lot of sacrifices and i agree with you, but then again there's a war going on, the people are doing their part just as the army is doing theirs. We live in dangerous times, you have to realize that stuff cant be butterflies and rainbows all the time.

You expressed your opinions and i respect that given you are free to express your opinions, however, let me ask you this, how free do you think you'd be under a totalitarian Taliban rule? you talk as if fighting the enemy's of your nation is just another job, well in case you didn't know, the army personnel risk their lives not for the money, but for the duty to defend their land against any aggression. are you really naive enough to think someone would be willing to risk their lives for a miserly 30 G's? a fcuking motorbike costs twice that! Life isn't that cheap mon ami, the people you are hating on are aware of this fact and yet whenever there's the need to make the ultimate sacrifice, the brave soldiers do it in a heartbeat. I guess the least you can do is show some goddamned respect instead of coming up with the despicable and frankly fallacious oh the army is the reason for the deplorable condition of Pakistan and its people argument.

 

[Leader]

you know, i have been an avid follower of this forum for quite a while now and i must say that i have never been more disappointed by a fellow Pakistanis comment until i read yours. i don't usually participate in discussions but after reading what you wrote, i felt compelled to express what i feel.
you continue to badmouth the very army you owe your freedom to. lets puts things into perspective, imagine the army comes back from the borders and instead of 0.5 mill, a solitary number is kept, how long do you think your country would last? i hope you realize your country is in a state of war and sacrifices are being made daily so that people of Pakistan can live their lives without fear of getting annihilated by terrorists. you are right when you say that the common man is making a lot of sacrifices and i agree with you, but then again there's a war going on, the people are doing their part just as the army is doing theirs. We live in dangerous times, you have to realize that stuff cant be butterflies and rainbows all the time.

You expressed your opinions and i respect that given you are free to express your opinions, however, let me ask you this, how free do you think you'd be under a totalitarian Taliban rule? you talk as if fighting the enemy's of your nation is just another job, well in case you didn't know, the army personnel risk their lives not for the money, but for the duty to defend their land against any aggression. are you really naive enough to think someone would be willing to risk their lives for a miserly 30 G's? a fcuking motorbike costs twice that! Life isn't that cheap mon ami, the people you are hating on are aware of this fact and yet whenever there's the need to make the ultimate sacrifice, the brave soldiers do it in a heartbeat. I guess the least you can do is show some goddamned respect instead of coming up with the despicable and frankly fallacious oh the army is the reason for the deplorable condition of Pakistan and its people argument.

atleast my "comment" brought you here, welcome to the forum

The country is because of its military, WrOnG Perspective! No, I am buying this anymore !!!

Yes, thats more likely, let the 0.5 million say "we serve our people, who sacrifice to keep army to protect our country's borders", then the whole nation would say we salute military, who sacrifice their lives for our country.

but all this has got nothing to do with questioning the Army's conduct, its accountability and role in Pakistan.

let me give you an example the guy who got killed in Mehran attack, Yasir Abbas, is made a hero, undoubtedly, he was a brave boy, has he not been court marshalled ??? Yes he got court marshalled... because he didnot follow the conduct he was trained to, went out himself without bulletproof jacket and got killed/wasted. I dont want my boys to be wasted like this.do we have the right to question their conduct ??? I am for a vigilant society, and I dont believe anyone is above law.
Emotions are important but we need to remain rational. only rationality will take us out.

about your last lines, the world is not divided into anti-army or pro-army, there is much more in it.

 

[Ganymede]

atleast my "comment" brought you here, welcome to the forum

The country is because of its military, WrOnG Perspective! No, I am buying this anymore !!!

Yes, thats more likely, let the 0.5 million say "we serve our people, who sacrifice to keep army to protect our country's borders", then the whole nation would say we salute military, who sacrifice their lives for our country.

but all this has got nothing to do with questioning the Army's conduct, its accountability and role in Pakistan.

let me give you an example the guy who got killed in Mehran attack, Yasir Abbas, is made a hero, undoubtedly, he was a brave boy, has he not been court marshalled ??? Yes he got court marshalled... because he didnot follow the conduct he was trained to, went out himself without bulletproof jacket and got killed/wasted. I dont want my boys to be wasted like this.do we have the right to question their conduct ??? I am for a vigilant society, and I dont believe anyone is above law.
Emotions are important but we need to remain rational. only rationality will take us out.

about your last lines, the world is not divided into anti-army or pro-army, there is much more in it.

I actually had trouble deciphering as to what you really wanted to say but i'll try to reply to your comment to the best of my ability.
The army is definitely not the sole entity that makes up a country, a country is constituted of its people, take the people out of the equation, and you are just left with land. However, the thing you consistently fail to realize is that you live in a tough neighborhood and rule of thumb says if u live in a tough neighborhood, you better have something to defend yourself when sh!t hits the fan.

Since most Pakistanis have the ability to forget history, let me give you a refresher course. Do you remember the thirteenth century siege of Baghdad? if not then let me remind you that the Abbasid caliph ordered that the 60 thousand odd defenders of the city be decommissioned as according to his logic, there was no need for them. Mind you we are talking about the golden age of a city here with a happy populace and prosperity all around. So as soon as the army is dissolved, the place is sacked by the Mongols and i don't think i need to mention any of the horrors the local population had to endure.
Now lets apply the same example to Pakistan and see how long would it be until the streets run red with blood.
I'm all for accountability and checks and balances in the army and i feel its long overdue however, when you dismiss you fellow countrymen laying down their lives ( for your and every ones benefit) then that's just sad.

"Yasir Abbas, is made a hero, undoubtedly, he was a brave boy, has he not been court marshalled......"

who's conduct are you talking about? the martyred soldiers or his superiors? if its the martyred soldier than who are you to criticize the decision that he made? it was his life on the line and he made the decision that to him was the most rational. if his decision was wrong in your eyes then why don't you criticize all the soldiers who laid their lives in the line of duty? after all, they could've acted like the French army for WWII which saluted the Germans when they walked unopposed into their country, but no, for some people, death feels like a better option. I know some people would just hide until help arrives meanwhile not giving a flying fcuk what happens to the rest of the people around them but then we have people of courage and valor who put the well being of their countrymen over everything else.

"about your last lines, the world is not divided into anti-army or pro-army, there is much more in it. "

You are yet to type an unequivocal statement about how you really feel about the army. so far, you've done a really nice job tying your self up in knots trying to justify your original statement.

 

[Leader]

Since most Pakistanis have the ability to forget history, let me give you a refresher course. Do you remember the thirteenth century siege of Baghdad? if not then let me remind you that the Abbasid caliph ordered that the 60 thousand odd defenders of the city be decommissioned as according to his logic, there was no need for them. Mind you we are talking about the golden age of a city here with a happy populace and prosperity all around. So as soon as the army is dissolved, the place is sacked by the Mongols and i don't think i need to mention any of the horrors the local population had to endure.

1- eeerrrrrrrrrrrrr...... Kair khan was governor, when a border skirmish resulted in death of some Genghis khan's men, he asked to handover those who killed or pay compensation, instead of handing over or paying compensation, Kair khan also killed the two Ambassadors sent to him. result of which we all know was "fall of Baghdad".

2- as for the poor strategy adopted by khuwarzam shah, was not removal of 60,000 men saying "not needed", but was actually that Mongols had better skills of archery, horse riding etc, even if Khuwarzam had let those 60,000 men remain on the defence of Baghdad, it would have just added 60,000 more deaths.

3- Genghis boys used a special type of poison on the tip of their swords and weapons, that would result in instant death upon a little cut. meaningthereby, superiority of the attacking force and the doctors of Baghdad (so much so for the golden period, was it so ?) havenot had any cure for it.

so overall, unjust behaviour with neighbours + bad diplomacy + bad politics + poor training of troops + poor equipment + bad strategy = failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad.

so please dont be emotional, there is a lot more in this world than just being anti-army or pro-army... live to learn !


I dont feel the need to rephrase myself about post 36.

 

[Ganymede]

1- eeerrrrrrrrrrrrr...... Kair khan was governor, when a border skirmish resulted in death of some Genghis khan's men, he asked to handover those who killed or pay compensation, instead of handing over or paying compensation, Kair khan also killed the two Ambassadors sent to him. result of which we all know was "fall of Baghdad".

2- as for the poor strategy adopted by khuwarzam shah, was not removal of 60,000 men saying "not needed", but was actually that Mongols had better skills of archery, horse riding etc, even if Khuwarzam had let those 60,000 men remain on the defence of Baghdad, it would have just added 60,000 more deaths.

3- Genghis boys used a special type of poison on the tip of their swords and weapons, that would result in instant death upon a little cut. meaningthereby, superiority of the attacking force and the doctors of Baghdad (so much so for the golden period, was it so ?) havenot had any cure for it.

so overall, unjust behaviour with neighbours + bad diplomacy + bad politics + poor training of troops + poor equipment + bad strategy = failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad.

so please dont be emotional, there is a lot more in this world than just being anti-army or pro-army... live to learn !


I dont feel the need to rephrase myself about post 36.

"unjust behaviour with neighbours + bad diplomacy + bad politics + poor training of troops + poor equipment + bad strategy = failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad."

you chose to ignore the rest of my post and decided to focus on something that was nothing more than a loose analogy, okay, have it you way then. lets make a list shall we?

In your own words these were the reasons for the fall of Baghdad. very well, lets compare it to the predicament Pakistan is in today.

Lets start with unjust behavior with neighbors:i am pretty sure that at least two of your neighbors (and that's not counting the mehman forces present in Afghanistan) accuse Pakistan of wrong doing and trouble making and even if their view is wrong, what is being done by the political and diplomatic setup to change it?

- bad diplomacy:check
- bad politics:erm checkety check check
- poor training of troops: Pakistan has decently trained troops
- poor equipment:as per the my view, the equipment the PA operates is pretty adequate keeping in mind the budgetary constraints.
-bad strategy: I think the PA follows the same policy of fight, talk , build as the US army. This to me is a pretty adequate strategy.
= failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad: Okay, the above breakdown points more towards a political failure rather than a military one which led to the fall.so in short, if Pakistan ever falls, it'll be a mixture of both political and military failures. We all know where politics stand, so then why blame the army when it calls itself the "last defense of the nation?"

 

[Leader]

"unjust behaviour with neighbours + bad diplomacy + bad politics + poor training of troops + poor equipment + bad strategy = failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad."

you chose to ignore the rest of my post and decided to focus on something that was nothing more than a loose analogy, okay, have it you way then. lets make a list shall we?

In your own words these were the reasons for the fall of Baghdad. very well, lets compare it to the predicament Pakistan is in today.

Lets start with unjust behavior with neighbors:i am pretty sure that at least two of your neighbors (and that's not counting the mehman forces present in Afghanistan) accuse Pakistan of wrong doing and trouble making and even if their view is wrong, what is being done by the political and diplomatic setup to change it?

- bad diplomacy:check
- bad politics:erm checkety check check
- poor training of troops: Pakistan has decently trained troops
- poor equipment:as per the my view, the equipment the PA operates is pretty adequate keeping in mind the budgetary constraints.
-bad strategy: I think the PA follows the same policy of fight, talk , build as the US army. This to me is a pretty adequate strategy.
= failure of khuwarzam shah and fall of Baghdad: Okay, the above breakdown points more towards a political failure rather than a military one which led to the fall.so in short, if Pakistan ever falls, it'll be a mixture of both political and military failures. We all know where politics stand, so then why blame the army when it calls itself the "last defense of the nation?"

I actually elaborated how to put things in perspective. rest I already talked in post 36.

 

[Icarus]

I actually elaborated how to put things in perspective. rest I already talked in post 36.

What would you know about the Army ?
I am honestly ashamed and I feel degraded addressing you after reading your cheap two-bit comments but I have a duty to put you in your right place.
Being in the Army is not about money or pay. I saw a good many Majors fall before me, knew the one who died today too. You think that he died for the lousy PKR28000 salary that he secured with 20 odd years of his life ? That he could have had even if he worked as a clerk for a company for 20 years. You think it's about the plot he would have gotten on retirement in the middle of nowhere that he had been paying for since his first pay check and would have continued to pay for, for the coming 30 years ?
There's more to life than money and honestly, I don't think you can ever rise to the point where you can understand that sometimes there are things more valuable than money.

And how dare you say that "You" pay for the army ?
Shameless chap, only 1% of our nation pays tax, that's 1.7 million, out of which 1.1 million are LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS, who's pay comes with tax deducted. The single largest tax paying organization in Pakistan is Fauji Foundation, so how dare you say that "You" pay for the army ?

If you have an ounce of dignity, you would stop posting in this thread.

 

[Icarus]

atleast my "comment" brought you here, welcome to the forum

The country is because of its military, WrOnG Perspective! No, I am buying this anymore !!!

Yes, thats more likely, let the 0.5 million say "we serve our people, who sacrifice to keep army to protect our country's borders", then the whole nation would say we salute military, who sacrifice their lives for our country.

but all this has got nothing to do with questioning the Army's conduct, its accountability and role in Pakistan.

let me give you an example the guy who got killed in Mehran attack, Yasir Abbas, is made a hero, undoubtedly, he was a brave boy, has he not been court marshalled ??? Yes he got court marshalled... because he didnot follow the conduct he was trained to, went out himself without bulletproof jacket and got killed/wasted. I dont want my boys to be wasted like this.do we have the right to question their conduct ??? I am for a vigilant society, and I dont believe anyone is above law.
Emotions are important but we need to remain rational. only rationality will take us out.
about your last lines, the world is not divided into anti-army or pro-army, there is much more in it.

1) He has not been court-marshalled, anyone who says so probably lied to you.
2) In case of fire, the SoP is not to find a F***ing BP Vest and a helmet. Under live fire there is no SoP. SoP tells us to not risk ourselves, yet we are decorated for pulling injured comrades from the line of fire. Why? Because although a piece of paper tells me I shouldn't do it, the human inside me tells me to. Under fire, there is no SoP, there are cowards and heroes. SoP in case of attack is to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible. The SoP was followed.

 

[VCheng]

Let us not allow one person's opinion to inflame all, please.

Let's keep the discussion where it belongs: the dedication of the brave soldiers, and the ultimate price paid by them.

There will be other places to criticize the Army's leadership, and the policies and financial shenanigans, and I would not hesitate to participate there, as I have done many a time.

BUT, this thread is NOT the place for it.

 

[fd24]

I actually elaborated how to put things in perspective. rest I already talked in post 36.

Disappointing to see someone of your stature on here having the feelings that you have. I dont mind you sharing your opinions and having a difference in opinion but do me a favor and have a think about the following.
Do you think we would be a nation without the actions of the army?
Do you think Pakistan would still exist?
Do you think you would be sitting and posting on PDF expressing your thoughts and opinions if the Taliban were in charge?

A fellow posted earlier what a soldier was earning. Boys to wake up evey morning and put that uniform, to leave the house and your family not knowing you will see them again is a humbling thought.
I am most sure that you are perhaps in a minority of 1 to have such a mindset regarding the army.
Bless them and bless the country they protect.

 

[Bratva]

I saw a good many Majors fall before me, knew the one who died today too. You think that he died for the lousy PKR28000 salary that he secured with 20 odd years of his life ?.

Four intelligence operatives and five militants were killed when Pakistani security personnel clashed with armed militants of the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi group in Punjab province today, media reports said.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi leader Doctor Arshad alias Mufti was among the militants killed in the clashes in Chakwal district, located about 90-km from Islamabad, the reports said.

The clashes erupted after security forces backed by helicopters launched an operation to flush out militants in a mountainous area.

The operation continued till the evening as officials believed Arshad's accomplices were hiding in the region.

Troops conducted a house-to-house search to apprehend fleeing militants and their facilitators. Footage on television showed helicopters and security personnel participating in the operation.

There was no official word on the operation and the clashes.

Four intelligence officials, including an army major, were killed when militants fired at a raiding party, Express News channel reported.

Dawn News reported that the four intelligence officials had been kidnapped by militants and the operation was launched to free them.

However, the militants shot them dead after the operation was launched, it reported.

Aaj news channel reported that police had arrested 13 militants.
FILED ON: NOV 12, 2011

Kakgeta, are you comfortable in telling if you participated in this operation today?