A Defense of Free Speech

[Tuahaa]

Oke why the god want to create test in the first case?? why did he created inequality among human beings which means he himself responsible for the state into which we are by creating inequality..... I hope you believe we are some form of his creation right??? if we are form of his creation then why is he testing the loyality from us.. does our parents test the loyality of there children who gave birth to us?? will you test ??

Again, like I said, God created us for His worship.

Humans are different from Angels (we believe in Angels too); our loyalty is much more meaningful than a being that works for God (Angels).

Humans give birth for babies do it for the sake of having a child and because of the fact that we have instincts for the want for reproduction. God created us for the sake of His worship- and a human's worship is dearer than a mindless drone's worship. Think of it this way: God has created four types of spiritual beings that we know of; devils (satan- make mischief and whisper evil), jinn (similar to humans but apparently do more evil than good), humans (us) and Angels (who only do good and worship God as well as do his bidding).

What the Qur'an thinks of us humans:

Surah At-tin

4. Verily, We created man of the best stature (mould),

5. Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low,

6. Save those who believe and do righteous deeds, then they shall have a reward without end (Paradise).

Regarding inequality, I hope you mean social status. God made all of us different but our test is the same; for example, a small test for poor people is to be grateful for all that God has given them- they still have their legs and feet, right? A rich person's test may be how he spends his wealth, and if he uses it for God's pleasure and for the sake of other humans- if a rich Muslim does not give zakaat (charity), he is definitely failing his test. If he thinks that he is better than other humans because of his money and class, he is failing his test.

We realise in the real world that much richer people have less faith than poorer people- In Pakistan, for example, our middle and lower class are stronger in their faith but our top social class aren't that faithful and do things because they feel superior.

Oke coming to adam and eve... accepted eve eat the apple and so we are like this... I guess the animals didnt eat those apple why are they dying?

Well, Eve didn't eat the apple- that was in the bible so as to put the blame on women (apparently eve's 'punishment' is damning all women to the pain of childbirth- this is wrong). In the Qur'an, both Adam and Eve fell into their human imperfections and disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit.

What do you mean about animals and not eating apples? The forbidden fruit has nothing to do with things dying. Animals are there to keep the world balanced and it is our responsibility to take care of them too. Dying is an important part of our lives, as humans- it means the end of our test and the entrance to Heaven or Hell. May God save us all from the Hellfire.

Hope this answered questions... please don't hesitate to ask more, thanks!

 

[Chogy]

This is refreshing to see a religious topic not devolve into vitriol.

First, on free speech - I am against any suppression of speech, of any kind, regardless of how stupid or hateful it is. In this, I am against laws limiting holocaust revisionism, as I would be against laws that prohibit criticism of any religion.

But the speaker must be aware that there can be social (if not State) ramifications. The State must protect the speaker from physical harm or other illegal acts, but you can lose your job, be condemned publicly, etc.

The Christian view on "why doesn't God just beam faith..." question, which has been around forever and is a valid concern, is similar to Islam. My brother (an Agnostic) asked me "why won't God simply reveal himself to all of humanity on a massive and indisputable scale?" Christianity answers this with the free-will argument.

Humans are created with free will, the ability to choose, good vs. bad. Let's say one morning you wake up, and there is a giant voice booming from the heavens - WORSHIP ME! I AM YOUR CREATOR! - and every TV and radio has the same voice; and now there are two moons, and other evidences of a great power... Guess what? you have just lost your free will. Because we have an intellect, we would recognize that ignoring this God probably wouldn't be wise. So you would have shuffling robotic worshippers, some hateful, being forced to follow this entity. God doesn't want that, he want us to choose the path of Grace and Righteousness, and come to Him out of love. We believe He has given us his Word, and we have everything (knowledge) we need to make a correct decision.

BTW, in the Christian Bible, both Adam and Eve ate the apple, not just Eve. Most Christians view Genesis as a parable, a story illustrating how man rejected God, the perfect world became imperfect, and what follows when this happens.

 

[forcetrip]

You may want to reconsider that. I see no commitment to action in the letter – as in a pledge to report those who plan or commit intimidation to the police. The difference is important, for the free-speech stress of the letter is on individual conscience rather than collective responsibility.

Why should I not conclude, then, that those Muslims who do attack free speech will nevertheless be tolerated and supported by the larger Muslim community?

I was just congratulating you on finding this article and bringing it up .. I obviously know how you feel about the religion in question. And even if 1b so called muslims practice the wrong religion can you brand the rest trying to make a difference. All religions are vague and can bring about the worst in peoples judgments. Only a select few can really understand the guidelines of its existence and preach them accordingly.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Again, like I said, God created us for His worship.

Humans are different from Angels (we believe in Angels too); our loyalty is much more meaningful than a being that works for God (Angels).

Humans give birth for babies do it for the sake of having a child and because of the fact that we have instincts for the want for reproduction. God created us for the sake of His worship- and a human's worship is dearer than a mindless drone's worship. Think of it this way: God has created four types of spiritual beings that we know of; devils (satan- make mischief and whisper evil), jinn (similar to humans but apparently do more evil than good), humans (us) and Angels (who only do good and worship God as well as do his bidding).

What the Qur'an thinks of us humans:




Regarding inequality, I hope you mean social status. God made all of us different but our test is the same; for example, a small test for poor people is to be grateful for all that God has given them- they still have their legs and feet, right? A rich person's test may be how he spends his wealth, and if he uses it for God's pleasure and for the sake of other humans- if a rich Muslim does not give zakaat (charity), he is definitely failing his test. If he thinks that he is better than other humans because of his money and class, he is failing his test.

We realise in the real world that much richer people have less faith than poorer people- In Pakistan, for example, our middle and lower class are stronger in their faith but our top social class aren't that faithful and do things because they feel superior.



Well, Eve didn't eat the apple- that was in the bible so as to put the blame on women (apparently eve's 'punishment' is damning all women to the pain of childbirth- this is wrong). In the Qur'an, both Adam and Eve fell into their human imperfections and disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit.

What do you mean about animals and not eating apples? The forbidden fruit has nothing to do with things dying. Animals are there to keep the world balanced and it is our responsibility to take care of them too. Dying is an important part of our lives, as humans- it means the end of our test and the entrance to Heaven or Hell. May God save us all from the Hellfire.

Hope this answered questions... please don't hesitate to ask more, thanks!

Thats very refreshing and in deed very depth understanding ....

how ever i cant get on the concept called test for true faith or true struggle to earn his love.. what is the need to test his own creativity?? why different language .. how come we descendent's of adam and eve have different language? it is confusing every one... how come we have different mentality and different level.. he also created the concept called survival of fittest among all living being on earth.. what does he expect human being to do then.. if we are good to animals they wont be good to us... why he did not believed in us as he had believed angels or prophets? .. why we are so cheap for him?.... i really feel that is so unacceptable on the part... so why only humans are made to shed blood and go for struggle.. what is the reason he is giving for infant deaths as they havent even see the day light yet? ... apple has created the problem for eve and adam.. but he could have pardoned them atleast once right? why he didnt do that.. why was he so strict on them after all it is his own creativity right?? .. they were disobedient so they got punishment.. why me??.. why i am not given a chance.. i will be obedient right??.. why all problems for me also is being applied??? ... and it is totally not logical to punish the entire race of them..
what god has given explanation for this???

Secondly on devil part... why he has been given infinite life .. he was so disobedient to him... he has done lot of problem... god was not strict on him?? he could have granted the same punishment which we are facing right??.. why double standard?? after all it is also his own creativity

 

[Tuahaa]

how ever i cant get on the concept called test for true faith or true struggle to earn his love.. what is the need to test his own creativity??

Well, first of all, we're not only doing it to earn God's 'love', we're doing it for His pleasure. He does not need to test His own creativity; not at all. The Angels, when God created mankind, asked Him as to why He was making such an imperfect race;

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." Chapter two, verse 30, Qur'an

And of course, those that are innocent (e.g. children or mentally disabled) and those that have earned His pleasure will be rewarded.

why different language .. how come we descendent's of adam and eve have different language? it is confusing every one... how come we have different mentality and different level.. he also created the concept called survival of fittest among all living being on earth.. what does he expect human being to do then.. if we are good to animals they wont be good to us...

Why are we different languages and different communities?

Language evolves over time. The sons and daughters of Adam and Eve (us) would have spread out in our own communities. Why did not God make us of our own community? He answers this in the following verse:

...To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. Chapter 5, verse 48, Holy Qur'an.

So basically, for each nation, our methods, our culture, etc are very different. He could have made all of us Muslim, or any other religion- but this life is a test. You may also be thinking "But if Islam says that it is the right religion, how come only some nations got to 'start out' as Muslims and had an 'easier' test?". Well, the answer is simple: Each of our tests are of the same difficulties, but they are different, and it is because of our forefathers that we follow the religions we do. Had Arab explorers not come to India, there would be no Islam in that region.

Coming to the animals part, what I meant was that we were supposed to take care of them in a sense as so as to not kill unnecessarily, for example, hunting. Also, just killing animals for their skin or teeth, etc, is not allowed because it is a waste and the animal. We can defend from animals (e.g. Lions), however, not hunt them for fun or for only a certain part of the animal. We must use the edible parts of the meat (if the animal is lawful to eat), etc...

why he did not believed in us as he had believed angels or prophets? .. why we are so cheap for him?.... i really feel that is so unacceptable on the part... so why only humans are made to shed blood and go for struggle.. what is the reason he is giving for infant deaths as they havent even see the day light yet? ...

I can understand your confusion. I quoted a verse in the Qur'an earlier in this post about how the angels questioned God about why he made human beings if we would just be there to cause mischief while the Angels themselves were perfect servants. See the following verses after that verse:

31. And He taught Adam all the names (of everything) , then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful."

32. They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

33. He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the Ghaib (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"

34. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah). Chapter 2, Qur'an

See there? The Angels were actually amazed of Adam! We are not cheap to God. If we were, he could have made us like the angels, without free will. We have free will and the ability to choose heaven and hell! The Angels only serve God.

apple has created the problem for eve and adam.. but he could have pardoned them atleast once right? why he didnt do that.. why was he so strict on them after all it is his own creativity right?? .. they were disobedient so they got punishment.. why me??.. why i am not given a chance.. i will be obedient right??.. why all problems for me also is being applied??? ... and it is totally not logical to punish the entire race of them..
what god has given explanation for this???

But the thing is that He is not punishing us. You see, God forgave Adam and Eve, but he also sent them to Earth. Why? Because if He did not, we would not be created. According to our beliefs, neither you nor I would exist if Adam and Eve did not come back to Earth.

See, God intended that they should go to Earth so that they would start the race of mankind- a race so great yet so low at times.

You would not have the opportunity to go to Heaven if God did not send adam and eve to Earth- think of it as this way. Don't hesitate to ask more questions

Secondly on devil part... why he has been given infinite life .. he was so disobedient to him... he has done lot of problem... god was not strict on him?? he could have granted the same punishment which we are facing right??.. why double standard?? after all it is also his own creativity

God has given the devil a punishment beyond what we call 'strict'.

God has promised him Hell so that he may be punished there when the Day of Judgement comes.

As said earlier, our existence on Earth is not a punishment, it is a test and an opportunity to go to Heaven.

Please ask more, I am open for questions and I will more than gladly answer them.

Thanks

 

[Tuahaa]

d
BTW, in the Christian Bible, both Adam and Eve ate the apple, not just Eve. Most Christians view Genesis as a parable, a story illustrating how man rejected God, the perfect world became imperfect, and what follows when this happens.

Oh, I didn't know that! Thanks for clearing that up- Some Christians told me that eve was being punished for eating the apple... but I didn't know what Christianity actually believes in about this. Well, I'll take this opportunity to enlighten myself about other religions... what does Christianity say about Judaism? I always wondered that... I know that both Islam and Christianity believe that the Jews were preferred by God but the Qur'an also says that the Jews will never be given their own true land (i.e. they will be driven out again) until they 'keep their part of the covenant' and that they didn't keep their promises 'in pride' (no offense anyone!). What does Christianity say about Jews?

I'm not trying to offend any Jews here (any opinion from you guys will also be great!).

I hope to learn about the other Abrahamic ('People of the Scripture') religions because the Qur'an speaks highly of them at times but I don't know too much except basic beliefs (especially Judaism).

 

[Chogy]

Again, congrats to all on a measured and mellow thread!

I'll try to be brief...

Christians view Judaism as a "beginning", an initial Covenant with God, with the promise of a Savior or Messiah evident in dozens of prophesies from the major and minor Jewish prophets, particularly Isaiah.

At the time of Jesus' ministry, Judaism had become quite formalized and ritualized, with some of the more powerful sects, particularly the Pharisees, believing that the promised Messiah was one who would lead the Jews in an Earthly kingdom; remove the shackles of Rome, become their political leader. Instead, what Jesus taught was a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one. The Sanhedrin (Jewish court) and other leaders in Jerusalem grew jealous of Jesus' popularity - he had gathered a large following who were listening to his teachings, which were very different from traditional Judaism - and convinced the Roman government to execute him for blasphemy.

Here is where Christianity and Islam part ways - we believe he was crucified, died, and was buried. On the third day he arose from the dead and appeared not only to his immediate disciples, but to thousands of eyewitnesses. He ascended into Heaven, promising to return. I know Islam teaches Jesus was NOT crucified.

Jesus had created a New Covenant, which supplants the old. Jewish dietary laws, Sabbath laws, the hundreds or thousands of laws, are n/a for Christians. We view Jesus' works and perfection, his sinless life, as a proper completion of the Old Testament (Jewish Bible). Our Bible consists of the Jewish Pentateuch, the prophets, the Psalms, and ends with the minor Prophet Malachi, written ~ 500 B.C. From there begins the New Testament - Four Gospels, or accounts of Jesus' life, the Acts of the Apostles, Epistles (letters) of Paul with guidance, and Revelations.

So in a nutshell, Christianity views Judaism as a root, a beginning, with Jesus as the completion, the promised Messiah.

 

[Solomon2]

We Jews continue to regard Judaism as a monotheistic religion emphasizing conduct and practice in the real world, while we feel the nature of Christianity is somewhat different (and thus not a "completion"), for it emphasizes mysticism, the afterlife, and even polytheism. So, for example, in Christianity the nature of G-d has always been a hot issue of debate, whereas in Judaism the question isn't important at all.

Both Judaism and Christianity believe G-d operates with purpose and consistency, hence the success of Western science compared to post-Ghazali Islam, which (as I understand it) emphasizes G-d's will and rejects the notion of a G-d constrained (or willing to be constrained) by laws of nature discoverable by man.

 

[Solomon2]

I was just congratulating you on finding this article and bringing it up .

Thanks. I don't feel good about it because I think that since there is no actionable statement in the letter its promises are empty.

And even if 1b so called muslims practice the wrong religion can you brand the rest trying to make a difference.

Sorry, I don't understand you.

All religions are vague and can bring about the worst...Only a select few can really understand...

You are a Pakistani. Your exposure to religion, other than different branches of Islam, is severely limited or non-existent (other than highly selective educational media coverage). Wouldn't you agree, then, that this opinion about religion can only apply to Islam, and that assuming that you have perfect knowledge of ALL other religions is demonstrably false and thus unjustly demeaning?

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

...
You are a Pakistani. Your exposure to religion, other than different branches of Islam, is severely limited or non-existent (other than highly selective educational media coverage). Wouldn't you agree, then, that this opinion about religion can only apply to Islam, and that assuming that you have perfect knowledge of ALL other religions is demonstrably false and thus unjustly demeaning?

Isn't assuming a person's experience and indeed their knowledge from what nationality they are not demeaning on their knowledge or their intelligence?

I'd have apologized...

 

[silent hill]

So if I am too stubborn to think, why should God "seal" my heart? If he is kind enough he should help me open my heart, right?

so u mean, god come to you personally visit you put garlands on you, and with a mgical wand move away all your worries??

What does this mean? This makes almost as much sense as Qu'ran.



Fine, why should he seal my heart?



How is not believing a "mischief"?

My question to you is simple. Can you delete all the verses from Qu'ran that insults atheists? If so, we can stop insulting your Qu'ran. Anyone? How is that your "holy" book, in "all it's glory" has EVERY right to insult us, but we have no right to insult it back? Remember, we are not even calling muslims any names... just the ******** book. Whereas your book not only insults our belief but also us!

quran doesnt insult anybody, it is warning a severe consequences for kafir people. my question to you is, quran believes that kafirs are people who dont understand the true message, if the message is false, and as you say there is no god, that u must prove it, u must debate, if quran is by a creator and not a joker, quran believes that allah is creator and those who believe other wise are doing injustice to his creator and to themselves too( becoz you people will be accountable during kiyamat and u will be penalized for it), so why quran needs to get deleted some verses.

If so, we can stop insulting your Qu'ran. Anyone? How is that your "holy" book, in "all it's glory" has EVERY right to insult us, but we have no right to insult it back? Remember, we are not even calling muslims any names... just the ******** book. Whereas your book not only insults our belief but also us!

quran is not insulting anybody in the first place, u can do what ever you wish, in the name of freedom of speech, but this freedom should not be with conditions, like nobody can question the holocaust, no body can insult jews every thing must be put under this scope nobody should be spared. and as the buddy said, muslims have the right for the ground zero mosques too. muslims should have freedom to wear niqab, hijab, burqa, turban what ever they want and keep a bear with any discrimination..

 

[MastanKhan]

that cartoonist hurt the feelings of billions of muslims, what i say is, put all things under theweighing machine, and weigh it down. i dont say mock the holocaust, its not our problem, let europeans and jews handle this matter, but problem is you mock our prophet and religion which is no affairs of yours in the first place.. live and let live

i dont want to feel better by mocking islam either

Hi,

What does it do to you or others if they mock your prophet, your God or your Book----nothing---none---zilch---.

It is just a probe they send out to check if the muslims have changed their ways---it is like a litmus test---.

They do those things and want to see how we react---if we react in the pre-determined manner---they say to themselves that they don't have anything to worry about---the muslims are good at destroying themselevs---these cartoons are weather balloons---.

The day the muslims stop reacting and look the other way to these insults, and Mohammad cartoons that will be the day they would start to worry. That will be a reason for some mega concerns---.

So---my good buddies---please don't waste your breath---the example is right in front of you guys eyes---.

This guy in NY desecrated the Koran----his christian boss fired him because it doesnot suit the image of the company he works for---this guy is not going to get an un-employment either---a daily wage guy is going to be homeless---he may not find another job like the one he had. Indeed Allah works in strange ways----.The Lords ways and means are only known to Him The Almighty.

 

[silent hill]

Hi,

What does it do to you or others if they mock your prophet, your God or your Book----nothing---none---zilch---.

It is just a probe they send out to check if the muslims have changed their ways---it is like a litmus test---.

They do those things and want to see how we react---if we react in the pre-determined manner---they say to themselves that they don't have anything to worry about---the muslims are good at destroying themselevs---these cartoons are weather balloons---.

The day the muslims stop reacting and look the other way to these insults, and Mohammad cartoons that will be the day they would start to worry. That will be a reason for some mega concerns---.

So---my good buddies---please don't waste your breath---the example is right in front of you guys eyes---.

This guy in NY desecrated the Koran----his christian boss fired him because it doesnot suit the image of the company he works for---this guy is not going to get an un-employment either---a daily wage guy is going to be homeless---he may not find another job like the one he had. Indeed Allah works in strange ways----.The Lords ways and means are only known to Him The Almighty.

what will be your reaction if they insult our quaid??, spits on his potrait, shiits on it??, will we not protest this bad conduct??, will there not be any official demand for apology?


bhai you tell me is this a sensible thing to mock a religion with over a billion followers, in the first place???, and what they achieve with that??, except hate and anger from the muslims??

 

[MastanKhan]

what will be your reaction if they insult our quaid??, spits on his potrait, shiits on it??, will we not protest this bad conduct??, will there not be any official demand for apology?


bhai you tell me is this a sensible thing to mock a religion with over a billion followers, in the first place???, and what they achieve with that??, except hate and anger from the muslims??

Hi,

My goodman---it won't hurt me a tad bit---I will feel bad inside----and say to myself---how cheap is that person morally to say something disrespectful---.

But then you didnot read what I stated---until the muslims don't grow out of this thing---they can't move up----these things are like anchors tied to our feet and keep us down.

You got to grow up mentally and act in a manner to hurt them the most---and that manner is not to react at all.

 

[Tuahaa]

We Jews continue to regard Judaism as a monotheistic religion emphasizing conduct and practice in the real world, while we feel the nature of Christianity is somewhat different (and thus not a "completion"), for it emphasizes mysticism, the afterlife, and even polytheism. So, for example, in Christianity the nature of G-d has always been a hot issue of debate, whereas in Judaism the question isn't important at all.

Oh, I see... so Jews don't believe that Christianity and Islam are from God? Just wondering...

Both Judaism and Christianity believe G-d operates with purpose and consistency, hence the success of Western science compared to post-Ghazali Islam, which (as I understand it) emphasizes G-d's will and rejects the notion of a G-d constrained (or willing to be constrained) by laws of nature discoverable by man.

I would say success of Muslim nations have little to do with what we believe. We believe God can do anything and everything, but we do not believe that He has to 'help' us until we do what is good.

In other words, for example, Pakistan- our elite don't give charity, our government is corrupt to the peak, our tribals are out there worshipping graves while their mosques are empty and we pretty much spoil it for ourselves.

I'd like to refer to the golden age of Islam, which brought many inventions and discoveries. We don't reject science at all, for we believe science is because of God. Also, Prophet Muhammad has heavily emphasized that we must 'gain knowledge' all the time, which we frankly have stopped doing. I know what you're saying, but I think the issue is altogether very different.

Thanks for sharing