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3 Doctors gunned down

A shameful act and black blot on country reputation.. Minorities should be provided automatic weapons for their protection on immediate basis and free of cost by Pak government.
 
This is Pakistan. Just because the police arrest somebodies - even if they're 99% sure they're guilty - doesn't mean there will be a conviction, or even if the suspects will ever go to court.

so you being the big holier than thou judge -- if we take no action we are damned....if the police take action they are still damned :lol:

do you ever step back and listen to yourself?


and (for someone who i assume is educated) --- keep into account that it isn't police job to determine who is guilty and who isn't guilty. That's the job of the COURTS.

Did anybody hear of the police collecting forensic evidence?

did you hear of them NOT collecting forensic evidence? Are you privy to details of the investigation which the public isn't?

if so, please share

Without evidence, what's to prevent twenty cousins from falsely testifying in court to provide suspects alibis?
Or maybe the father of one or more suspects has a friend who is a minister and can order them released?

without evidence, there's no case (as is the case everywhere else in the world) and it will drag on

right now it's based on witness accounts; the police already assured the hindu community that action would be taken. 11 out of 15 of the ACCUSED are now in custody. What miracles are you expecting 24 hours after the incident?


How do you measure barbarism? By how the majority of a society lives or by the violent extremes it tolerates - or even encourages and empowers?

well G.W. Bush junior was ''told by God'' to go on a ''mission'' and invade Iraq (based on a pack of lies and deception)

he wasn't a regular civilian in some rural village, he was the President of your country sitting in Washington DC......

initially, a good portion of the country backed him. Does that make them extremist sympathizers too?



there is a section of society in Pakistan that is intolerant no doubt.....that's where education and activism come in handy to correct this problem. And that can be handled internally, without the holier-than-thou approach of somebody who has probably never even travelled to Asia --let alone Pakistan.
 
so you being the big holier than thou judge -
What am I judging? That Pakistan's justice system is corrupt? Do Pakistanis really need me to tell them that?

keep into account that it isn't police job to determine who is guilty and who isn't guilty. That's the job of the COURTS.
Pakistan is the country that invented "encounter killings". While doing so may eliminate miscreants, such deeds also add to general lawlessness and instability.

did you hear of them NOT collecting forensic evidence? Are you privy to details of the investigation which the public isn't?
Too many Pakistani crime investigations I've read about - like Benazir Bhutto's murder - have foundered due to lack of forensic investigations by the police. So I think I'm asking a proper question.

right now it's based on witness accounts; the police already assured the hindu community that action would be taken.
Remember Gojra? All those Christians killed and their property destroyed and the result was that the Interior Ministry agreed to rebuild the homes of the survivors in exchange for not prosecuting their tormentors. The Christians that remain must face the people who slaughtered their families without penalty or remorse on the street. How is that justice? Should the Hindus remain if a similar result is sought?

11 out of 15 of the ACCUSED are now in custody. What miracles are you expecting 24 hours after the incident?
I have a higher opinion of Pakistan's police than you think. But how can they effectively convict criminals without forensic tools and equipment, without training, and without proper facilities for storing evidence? If Pakistan diverted a fifth of what it spends on troops on the Indian border towards such things and brought ordinary policeman's pay up to highway trooper levels, don't you think it would massively improve Paksitanis' feeling of security?

there is a section of society in Pakistan that is intolerant no doubt.....that's where education and activism come in handy to correct this problem. And that can be handled internally, without the holier-than-thou approach of somebody who has probably never even travelled to Asia --let alone Pakistan.
"Holier-than-thou" isn't my problem. Envy is. Yes, I've never been to Pakistan. I've never had to deal with a Pakistani's liabilities - and I will never collect honors and benefits due to those Pakistanis who will eventually correct them.

Will that be your job, A.Z.? Or will you concentrate and lying low and making as much money as you can, hoping to evade the tempest before it strikes?
 
What am I judging? That Pakistan's justice system is corrupt? Do Pakistanis really need me to tell them that?

there are some flaws i think; local courts in some areas may suffer from corruption (through sneeky ways) but the Supreme Court in Pakistan is incorruptible and even some western analysts will agree with that (if that is any bit more ''assuring'' for you)

Pakistan is the country that invented "encounter killings".

do explain....

and on that note, i seem to vaguely recall the sad story of one Amadou Diallo in New York City. The pot calling the kettle black! :laugh:


While doing so may eliminate miscreants, such deeds also add to general lawlessness and instability.

as well as alienation and radicalization perhaps? So you agree that extra-judicial killings are wrong, ;)



Too many Pakistani crime investigations I've read about - like Benazir Bhutto's murder - have foundered due to lack of forensic investigations by the police. So I think I'm asking a proper question.

and what happened to the head of police in Rawalpindi (where the crime took place)....he has been relieved of duty and in fact, is facing charges of negligence and allowing the tampering of a crime scene


Remember Gojra? All those Christians killed and their property destroyed and the result was that the Interior Ministry agreed to rebuild the homes of the survivors in exchange for not prosecuting their tormentors. The Christians that remain must face the people who slaughtered their families without penalty or remorse on the street. How is that justice? Should the Hindus remain if a similar result is sought?

it's funny how more communal unrest takes place in neighbouring india (3,000 Muslims killed in Gujrat, scores of Christians killed in Orissa riots, caste-based discrimination) yet you never comment on those. Others may not see through your BS. I do however. And you can trust that with me breathing down your neck to expose your blatant anti-Pakistan bias (which at this point isn't even disguised) I won't leave a stone un-turned.

I remember Gojra very well.

Muslim and Christian leaders came together recently to commemorate a tragedy in a small Christian neighborhood in Pakistan two years before, and to denounce the perpetrators, who have not been punished.

The leaders came together in an interfaith event that was held at the Sacred Heart Church in Gojra last Monday, to mark the second year anniversary of the August 2009 tragedy, where 10 people died, including a family of seven who were set on fire; and dozens of Christian homes were razed to the ground.

Two Muslim leaders apologized for the violence during the event. The Muslim leaders said they regretted the violence which is inconsistent with the “spirit of Islam,” Catholic News India reported.

In 2009, some 800 Muslims attacked Christian neighborhoods in Gojra in the Punjab region, setting buildings on fire and attacking people, leaving 10 dead. Although 70 suspects were arrested, all were acquitted.

...............................


In an interfaith mass, Rt. Rev. Bishop Joseph Coutts of the Diocese of Faisalabad said in his message, “The blood of the martyrs is seed of the church. The early Christians were persecuted by the Romans and Jews, (and) before conversion, Paul also persecuted Christians, but Christianity flourished very fast.”

At the same time, Coutts stressed the need for change, Christian Telegraph said. “There is injustice in society, and efforts must be made for a just and peaceful society in Pakistan.”

http://theundergroundsite.com/index...iolence-in-gojra-on-second-anniversary-16889/



I have a higher opinion of Pakistan's police than you think. But how can they effectively convict criminals without forensic tools and equipment, without training, and without proper facilities for storing evidence?

Quite frankly, i could care less what your opinion is of our police. However, your point is well taken. They do need better training and better equipment. Forensic tools --well you would be amazed about the new capabilities enjoyed by the ATC; we have a very good edge in forensics for terrorist incidents; crime scene forensics capability is 'satisfactory' (my own assessment)

the Lahore and Islamabad police forces are some of the best trained, equipped, and professional in almost all of Asia. However in other areas where funding is less liberal, there is indeed a need for improvement.

actually, there was much equipment we were expecting to receive from America as part of its support to it's ''partner'' however those were never received....anyways we digress


If Pakistan diverted a fifth of what it spends on troops on the Indian border towards such things and brought ordinary policeman's pay up to highway trooper levels, don't you think it would massively improve Paksitanis' feeling of security?

how the budgets are handled and how and how much funds are disbursed is a matter for parliament to determine....

again --our actions along the indian border are CONTINGENT on the actions of the indians themselves. When they maintain an offensive force near our border then, by God, you can be rest-assured that we will react proportionally. Nowdays things are quiet along the border anyways, not much activity going on.


"Holier-than-thou" isn't my problem. Envy is.

i'm sorry you suffer from envy...i wish i could help you, i really do. Unfortunately i can't.



Yes, I've never been to Pakistan. I've never had to deal with a Pakistani's liabilities - and I will never collect honors and benefits due to those Pakistanis who will eventually correct them.

good, because you don't deserve them.....with all due respect, i doubt your own country would bestow such ''honors and benefits'' when the proactive and forward-looking people in your country (many of which there are) correct the problems with America.



Will that be your job, A.Z.? Or will you concentrate and lying low and making as much money as you can, hoping to evade the tempest before it strikes?

my main focus is to attain my degree, which will Inshallah be in my hand come August. As someone who already has served my country, i am ready (and willing) to do it again.

that's why I'll be leaving the states and returning to Pakistan before the summer ends


but this thread isn't about me anyways, so i'll leave it at that :)
 
the Supreme Court in Pakistan is incorruptible and even some western analysts will agree with that
Until the SC renounces the doctrines "necessity" that have been used to legitimize coup after coup it is a part of a corrupt system that denies democratic rule to Pakistanis and keeps murderous military rulers on top - a reality Admiral Mullen was shocked into believing when he became convinced that the order to kill Saleem Shahzad came from an officer on Kiyani's staff.

do explain
Encounter killings by police - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it's funny how more communal unrest takes place in neighbouring india (3,000 Muslims killed in Gujrat, scores of Christians killed in Orissa riots, caste-based discrimination) yet you never comment on those.
Do the misdeeds of foreigners justify Pakistanis allowing murderers to walk the streets, unpunished, striking terror into the hearts of the relatives of their victims?

Muslim and Christian leaders came together recently to commemorate a tragedy -
The reality of religious tolerance isn't discovered when a mullah mouths soft words of reconciliation. The reality is discovered when the same mullah whips up his followers to either chase down non-Muslims, or oppose those doing so.

our actions along the indian border are CONTINGENT on the actions of the indians themselves. When they maintain an offensive force near our border then, by God, you can be rest-assured that we will react proportionally.
AZ, I understand Pakistani textbooks teach it different, but since independence the reality is that all of the wars between India and Pakistan have originated by Pakistani initiative. So maintaining "proportionate" forces at the Indian border is unlikely to increase Pakistani security; the opposite is more likely, in my opinion.
 
Until the SC renounces the doctrines "necessity" that have been used to legitimize coup after coup it is a part of a corrupt system that denies democratic rule to Pakistanis and keeps murderous military rulers on top - a reality Admiral Mullen was shocked into believing when he became convinced that the order to kill Saleem Shahzad came from an officer on Kiyani's staff.

Coups are the thing of the past and the C in C made it VERY clear that the Army will not have anything to do with politics in the country.

Do the misdeeds of foreigners justify Pakistanis allowing murderers to walk the streets, unpunished, striking terror into the hearts of the relatives of their victims?

no, because two WRONGS never make a right



The reality of religious tolerance isn't discovered when a mullah mouths soft words of reconciliation.

it's a damn good start......I assume you were against Park 51 too?


The reality is discovered when the same mullah whips up his followers to either chase down non-Muslims, or oppose those doing so.

I agree; and such ''Mullahs'' are simply preaching hatred and deviating from true Islam --which teaches compassion and tolerance to all its followers.


AZ, I understand Pakistani textbooks teach it different, but since independence the reality is that all of the wars between India and Pakistan have originated by Pakistani initiative. So maintaining "proportionate" forces at the Indian border is unlikely to increase Pakistani security; the opposite is more likely, in my opinion.

and that is strictly your own opinion. As for 1948, well when the indian army moved into disputed Kashmiri territory (dont take the britisher era raja's illiegitimate order as justified) Pakistan was obviously obligated to act. It was just one year after 47 and there was much mutually shared animosity between both countries; tempers were high. india's actions in Kashmir were and still are unjustified; but let's not even go there.

I could make the case that insurrection and dictatorship in Latin America and much of the Middle East is at least partly due to your country's initiative. Would you refute that?
 
Sherry files motion in NA over killing of Hindu doctors

ISLAMABAD: Former Information Minister Sherry Rehman has submitted an adjournment motion to the National Assembly over the killing of three Hindu doctors in the Shikarpur district.

According to news reports, the three brothers identified as Dr Ajeet Kumar, Dr Naresh Kumar and Dr Ashok Kumar were gunned down due to an altercation with the Muslim Baban Khan Bhayo tribe over a dancing girl, just meters away from the local police station.

The victims had been requesting police protection after earlier threats were made to their lives but this was blatantly disregarded and the brothers were sprayed with bullets by men on a motorcycle in their village.

The family members of the victims have expressed dissatisfaction over the registered FIR against the Bhayo clansman believing it to be largely fabricated, leading to the provision of some benefit of doubt for the accused despite the heinous nature of the crime.

Sherry Rehman said that “this kind of open bias on the part of a state institution towards a minorities group not only amounts to violation of constitutional rights of minorities, it also creates mistrust over the state’s role as guarantor of a citizen’s protection”.

She said the Shikarpur incident calls for a serious investigation into the role of local police officials who ignored the pleas of protection from the victims. “The suspension of the SHO in Chak police station remains a disproportionately weak response to the abominable nature of this crime,” she added.

Sherry Rehman stated that the gruesome killings were “a reflection of the fact that we as a majority are still silent in condoning the discrimination and rampant persecution of citizens based on their religious background.

She said the government has verbally condemned the murders but it remains an indisputable fact that religious minorities will not feel safe and free in an increasingly hostile and predatory environment for non-Muslims until the deep-rooted issues surrounding faith-based violence begin to be addressed.

Sherry Rehman pointed out that Pakistan needs a major overhaul in its social and legislative framework to pave the way for a rights-driven approach towards issues related to minorities and the disadvantaged.

She said the idea that crimes against religious minorities can easily escape accountability must be challenged. “To effectively avoid further abuse and to address the perpetual vulnerability and fear amongst religious communities, greater transformative measures need to be taken on an immediate basis,” she added.

To start with, Sherry Rehman said that any hate crime which results from the discrimination on the basis of any individual’s faith or background should be treated as a case of aggravated assault, and penalized as such.

She said federal and provincial funding to areas where educational and health programmes encourage segregation based on religious affiliation should be blocked. “A special ombudsman on the rights of minorities should be put in place. The National Commission on Minorities as a statutory body, must be revived and reconstituted with terms of reference that make regular meetings, and which is comprised largely of minority and vulnerable groups,” she added.

Further, she said the supra-legal authority exercised by jirgas should give way to any dispute between parties being resolved within the ambit of the country’s legal system. Sherry Rehman said that Pakistan was envisioned by its founders as an equal-rights state with sufficient guarantees to all groups to practice their faith under state’s protection. “Any structure that allows individuals and groups to violate laws with impunity needs critical state interventions on an immediate basis,” she added.
 

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