21 states, UTs join Centre in fight against honour killings

[Indo-guy]

21 states, UTs join Centre in fight against honour killings - The Times of India


NEW DELHI: Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh have joined 18 other states to empower the Centre to bring a legislation against honour killings, in what could be a turnaround moment for the effort to curb the powers of caste and community bodies which seek to be the final arbiter of social mores and arrogate unto themselves the power of judiciary.

In its affidavit to the Supreme Court the Union law ministry has said besides Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana, Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Goa, Himachal Pradesh, Jharkhand, Kerala, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Odisha, Rajasthan,, West Bengal and UTs like Chandigarh, Dadra and Nager Haveli, Daman and Diu, Lakshwadeep and Puducherry, have supported the "Prohibition of interference with the freedom of matrilineal alliances bill."

Haryana, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh — all marked by poor sex ratio and high incidence of gender inequality — have been among the sites of gruesome instances of honour killings in the recent past. For them to sign up to the campaign against honour killings is significant because of the political class's diffidence thus far about taking on powerful khaps. All the three states opposed an earlier move for a central legislation against against honour killings. In fact the group of ministers set up by UPA on honour killing could barely meet a couple of times in the absence of unanimity on the issue.



The development is also significant because states can be extremely reluctant to delegate their law making powers to the Centre on matters concerning law and order.

Law ministry's affidavit, comes in response to a writ petition by Shakti Vahini which is scheduled to be heard on November 19.



The proposed bill drafted by the law commission in 2012, was expected to check the high-handed and unwarranted interference by caste assemblies or panchayats with sagotra, inter-caste or inter-religious marriages. In view of the rising number of incidents where young couples were excommunicated, tortured and killed for marrying within the gotra under orders from the Khap panchayats, the law commission recommended a threshold bar on congregation of people for condemning a marriage on the basis that the marriage has dishonoured caste, community or brought disrepute to the family or community concerned.

The penal provision for such unlawful assembly was proposed at imprisonment of six months to a year and a fine of Rs 10,000. The bill elaborated that criminal intimidation of the couple or their families would invite imprisonment ranging between one to seven years and a fine of Rs 30,000. The bill also proposes to make all offences cognizable, non-bailable and non-compoundable.

 

[ranjeet]

Good move, inter caste marriages are common thing in haryana now but still lot of work is needed to be done on this front. It's the issue of same gotra and marriage in same or surrounding villages that's has been the main reason behind the honor killings. This needs to be debated upon and everyone has to be on board and agree to the final decision.

 

[Arya Desa]

Good move, inter caste marriages are common thing in haryana now but still lot of work is needed to be done on this front. It's the issue of same gotra and marriage in same or surrounding villages that's has been the main reason behind the honor killings. This needs to be debated upon and everyone has to be on board and agree to the final decision.

So you think we should accept inbreeding? Marriage in the same gotra/village will NOT be accepted and should be punishable by law.

 

[Abingdonboy]

21 states, UTs join Centre in fight against honour killings - The Times of India


NEW DELHI: Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh have joined 18 other states to empower the Centre to bring a legislation against honour killings, in what could be a turnaround moment for the effort to curb the powers of caste and community bodies which seek to be the final arbiter of social mores and arrogate unto themselves the power of judiciary.

In its affidavit to the Supreme Court the Union law ministry has said besides Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Haryana, Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Chhattisgarh, Goa, Himachal Pradesh, Jharkhand, Kerala, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Odisha, Rajasthan,, West Bengal and UTs like Chandigarh, Dadra and Nager Haveli, Daman and Diu, Lakshwadeep and Puducherry, have supported the "Prohibition of interference with the freedom of matrilineal alliances bill."

Haryana, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh — all marked by poor sex ratio and high incidence of gender inequality — have been among the sites of gruesome instances of honour killings in the recent past. For them to sign up to the campaign against honour killings is significant because of the political class's diffidence thus far about taking on powerful khaps. All the three states opposed an earlier move for a central legislation against against honour killings. In fact the group of ministers set up by UPA on honour killing could barely meet a couple of times in the absence of unanimity on the issue.



The development is also significant because states can be extremely reluctant to delegate their law making powers to the Centre on matters concerning law and order.

Law ministry's affidavit, comes in response to a writ petition by Shakti Vahini which is scheduled to be heard on November 19.



The proposed bill drafted by the law commission in 2012, was expected to check the high-handed and unwarranted interference by caste assemblies or panchayats with sagotra, inter-caste or inter-religious marriages. In view of the rising number of incidents where young couples were excommunicated, tortured and killed for marrying within the gotra under orders from the Khap panchayats, the law commission recommended a threshold bar on congregation of people for condemning a marriage on the basis that the marriage has dishonoured caste, community or brought disrepute to the family or community concerned.

The penal provision for such unlawful assembly was proposed at imprisonment of six months to a year and a fine of Rs 10,000. The bill elaborated that criminal intimidation of the couple or their families would invite imprisonment ranging between one to seven years and a fine of Rs 30,000. The bill also proposes to make all offences cognizable, non-bailable and non-compoundable.

Good, this backwards mentality $hit needs to end once and for all.

 

[Krate M]

Actually gotra law is not absolute, if no direct relation is there for 4 generations, marriage is allowed. This makes sense genetically too.
But it will be difficult to convince these khap guys.

 

[ranjeet]

So you think we should accept inbreeding? Marriage in the same gotra/village will NOT be accepted and should be punishable by law.

yes a law is needed, but these big bindi wali aunties go haywire when discussing such things.

 

[Sahasranama]

Actually gotra law is not absolute, if no direct relation is there for 4 generations, marriage is allowed. This makes sense genetically too.
But it will be difficult to convince these khap guys.

You are wrong. Among Hindus same gotra (sagotra) marriages are NOT permitted. It is termed as incest.

The Khap safeguards our culture and tradition in a time and age where it is fashionable to denigrate it. Before attempting to teach the Khap something, its better if you can learn something about Hinduism.

Better still show me where it says Gotra law is not absolute beyond 4 generation. Manusmiriti says that marriage is to be conducted 6 Generation away from the parents, but for different gotras, not same gotra.

This is the REAL reason for arranged marriages in India.

 

[Krate M]

@Sahasranama
Manu-smriti states that Hindus should leave 7 generations from the fathers side and 5 generations from the mother side before fixing up a marriage—to preserve the integrity of the Y chromosome
From here: Ajit Vadakayil: MANU , THE FIRST LAW MAKER -- CAPT AJIT VADAKAYIL
So different sources say different.
My source was my family pandit, whom I asked because of my inquisitive nature.He told me this was allowed. I asked my family elders the same thing and the answer was same.

We both agree that the gothra system was created to reduce genetic disorder and therefore works on the laws of genetics. So it also takes into consideration that the risk becomes negligible after certain number of generation.

In villages the need for gothra enforcement especially in premodern times was understandable.
In villages most of the neighboring families were actually nothing but extended family, as families used to split but still live close by (still is the case in lot of villages). So in absence of gothra system this would have led to a genetic disaster. Moreover marriages happened in close by villages only, so the need was great to manage the chance of genetic disorder.

In modern day that does not exist to that an extent. The genetic variation is greater than before. The amount of urban population is far greater and due to marriages in far away villages due to improvements in transport, the variations will increase
While I don't disrespect khaps and I certainly am for preservation of our culture and traditions, I think they can use a bit more knowledge of the shastras. How many members of khaps are well versed in the scriptures?
And please don't make statement like learn about Hinduism before teaching khap etc. If you travel around India you will be amazed by the kind of differences and similarities in Hinduism. The greatest thing about Hinduism is the diversity and its flexibility.
If khaps start basing their decisions on basis of knowledge, they would be more agreeable to the common people. Instead they use only tradition and force, which makes them villains in the eye of law.
And I completely disagree with their caste policies.
I also would support a law against incest.

 

[Krate M]

Science of Genetics behind the Hindu Gotra System – The Y Chromosome and the Male Lineage | HitXP by Gurudev

To quote a rule of the Gotra System (Manusmriti 3/5)

AsapiMDAchayA mAtur sagOtrAchayA pituH |
sA praShasthA dvijAtInAM dArakarmaNi maithune ||

which means

When the man and woman do not belong to six generations from the maternal side
and also do not come from the father’s lineage, marriage between the two is good.

Quoted the shlok you refer to.

One very very important point is that manu smriti is not the only source for Hindu traditions. It is an important one but not the sole source. Also all scriptures are guidelines and not absolute. That is the major principal of Hinduism

 

[Parul]

Nice Initiative! Their is no honour in honour killings.

 

[kalanirnay]

@Sahasranama
Manu-smriti states that Hindus should leave 7 generations from the fathers side and 5 generations from the mother side before fixing up a marriage—to preserve the integrity of the Y chromosome
From here: Ajit Vadakayil: MANU , THE FIRST LAW MAKER -- CAPT AJIT VADAKAYIL
So different sources say different.
My source was my family pandit, whom I asked because of my inquisitive nature.He told me this was allowed. I asked my family elders the same thing and the answer was same.

You have quoted the corrct Smirit to show 6 gen seperation, so this matter is settled.

We both agree that the gothra system was created to reduce genetic disorder and therefore works on the laws of genetics. So it also takes into consideration that the risk becomes negligible after certain number of generation.

In villages the need for gothra enforcement especially in premodern times was understandable.
In villages most of the neighboring families were actually nothing but extended family, as families used to split but still live close by (still is the case in lot of villages). So in absence of gothra system this would have led to a genetic disaster. Moreover marriages happened in close by villages only, so the need was great to manage the chance of genetic disorder.

Gotra provide people with a linkage and lineage they are proud of. It gives them a sense of Identity and ROOTS. I agree with your assessment for the need for gotra in the past.

In modern day that does not exist to that an extent. The genetic variation is greater than before. The amount of urban population is far greater and due to marriages in far away villages due to improvements in transport, the variations will increase
While I don't disrespect khaps and I certainly am for preservation of our culture and traditions, I think they can use a bit more knowledge of the shastras. How many members of khaps are well versed in the scriptures?

Irrespective of seperation of time and distance, gotra helps us propogate genetic variation and ensure sruvival of a healthy society.

I would think the Khaps consult with a scholar on scriptures before making a ruling. That is just common sense. Unless you think Khap members do not have common sense.

And please don't make statement like learn about Hinduism before teaching khap etc. If you travel around India you will be amazed by the kind of differences and similarities in Hinduism. The greatest thing about Hinduism is the diversity and its flexibility.
If khaps start basing their decisions on basis of knowledge, they would be more agreeable to the common people. Instead they use only tradition and force, which makes them villains in the eye of law.
And I completely disagree with their caste policies.
I also would support a law against incest.

I have travelled around India so do not bother to make such patronising comments and I will keep mine in check. Khaps take decision based on available knowledge, so if you increase their acess to knowledge they will take better decisions. Just like people anywhere else in the world.

 

[Krate M]

@kalanirnay that post was not addressed to you.
If you are really that well traveled, then you would know how much variation in Hinduism exists. Manu smriti is not the only source of Hinduism, and there are many books before it and as important. Other thing is that the strength of Hinduism is that it adopted what is beneficiary from a lot of source and discarded what was not. We don't practice untouchability anymore, do you?
Thank God khaps don't exist in all the states of India.
The problem is khap takes decisions that affect life and death of people.
The bigger problem is that they have become political and politicians who are taking decisions that are against rights of people.
Whose fault is it that the khaps are not knowledgeable? The couple on whom the khap passes death sentence? Nobody should have right to pass life and death sentence while being so terribly misinformed.

Khaps have become oppressive to lower caste people.
The government is absolutely right to take steps against honor killings.

 

[kalanirnay]

@kalanirnay that post was not addressed to you.
If you are really that well traveled, then you would know how much variation in Hinduism exists. Thank God khaps don't exist in all the states of India.
The problem is khap takes decisions that affect life and death of people.
The bigger problem is that they have become political and politicians who are taking decisions that are against rights of people.
Whose fault is it that the khaps are not knowledgeable? The couple on whom the khap passes death sentence? Nobody should have right to pass life and death sentence while being so terribly misinformed.

Khaps have become oppressive to lower caste people.
The government is absolutely right to take steps against honor killings.

Everybody is misinformed, some more than others. No one has absolute knowledge. Not even the courts who sanction killing.

In the absence of any law that protected hindu belief in Gotra, the khaps did the next best thing they could to prevent this assault on society and their value system. That is the reason any war is fought , right ?

People's rights exists along with their Responsibilities and responsible behaviour. Law interfears when it does not see responsible behaviour. That is how it works.

Let everyone come together to either pass a law to prevent sagotra marriage or let the scholars in hinduims come together and make a differnt ruling and modify the smirit.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I am surprised that Delhi hasn't joined yet. This is a problem in the urban villages of Delhi as well.

 

[Krate M]

@kalanirnay wow bravo bravo
The next best thing indeed. Wars are fought for all kinds of stupid reasons.
Indeed the brave khap leaders who fight this war by attacking unarmed couples in love and kill them in the most vicious ways. Many who don't even violate the very rules they cite for ordering those killings.
I think everyone should come together and ban these khaps. They don't belong in a modern day India.