1990/01/19 and the Kashmiri Pandits

[Lincoln]

Ok.



Then tell me practically, will the Indian establishment agree to a plebiscite in the Valley ??

What I proposed not only will resolve the Kashmir issue but will also, at the same time, bring Progressive system to both India and Pakistan.



Where ??

If it's not possible today, then we wait for tomorrow. But never will we compromise, Kashmiri people are our brothers.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Where ??

I don't think your discussion is complete without due reference to atrocities in Jammu and Kashmir by Indian security forces, paramilitaries and others, orchestrated by various parties that are loyal to and answer to Delhi.

You speak of truth and reconciliation, which cannot hope to gain a single grain of traction because of the very nature of Hindutva.

The phenomenon of the PTSD Hindu is not about to be suddenly cured. There are individuals there who have an existential obsession with Pakistan and kashmiri aspirations that align with Pakistani interests.

Such hatred manifests as the vitriol that escapes to the surface from time to time ("rape for rape" diatribes and the like).

The point is we are not dealing with a reasonable and at least logical opposing belligerent, such as de Clerk in South Africa or the British in Northern Ireland.

An occupational or dictatorial regime firstly needs to acknowledge its crimes or accept the grievances of its victims before any such truth and reconciliation may arise.

Northern Ireland is relatively quiet presently. The Good Friday agreement enshrines certain special terms and rights for the people of NI, fully ratified by London (all major parties) and there is no going backwards on it.

What Delhi did in August was claim some horseshit preschool level justification "equality for all Indians" as a means to actually disenfranchise kashmiris without once consulting the kashmiri people or their elected leaders on it. "Equality" is not some absolute terms. It is relative and threatened minorities and their relationship with their land demands protection! Moreover, assurances were given that Kashmiris would be consulted on any changes to the status quo. This decades old guarantee has been trampled on by Modi. This sort of annexation would have perpetuated war in NI. The GFA in fact has countless safeguards guaranteeing full consultation of republican and loyalist communities regarding any changes in political status. This is precisely what Modi trampled all over last year.

There is no negotiation with such aggressors. There is no reasoning or truth and reconciliation with folks who wish to eradicate their enemy. Hindutva is a simplistic childish philosophy that reduces the world to Hindutva and existential threats to Hindutva.

Such philosophical hatred only understands one language, and diplomacy is not it. Hindutva must be cowed into submission or at least forced back. Such philosophies see no inherent fault in their own moral transgressions, hence they will only cease and desist from such transgressions if the cost in blood and treasure is too great to sustain such behaviour.

It really is that simple.

 

[jamahir]

I don't think your discussion is complete without due reference to atrocities in Jammu and Kashmir by Indian security forces, paramilitaries and others, orchestrated by various parties that are loyal to and answer to Delhi.

In one of my previous posts I have written :

2. Even without talking of suppression by the Indian armed forces in Kashmir

There is no negotiation with such aggressors. There is no reasoning or truth and reconciliation with folks who wish to eradicate their enemy.

Then talk to the Indian Supreme Court. Use the UNO and SCO.

But the solution spoken there should not be "Oh, the Kashmir Valley belongs to Pakistan". That is not practical.

Try the solution I suggested. Actually, part of it is not mine but of Gaddafi. Try it.

 

[Nityam]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1218970101774344192

 

[Joe Shearer]

Before hindus jump on my comment, such a measure of loyalty is applied regardless of religious affiliation. Plenty of Muslims have betrayed the kashmiri cause also.

The interesting point is that both kashmiri Hindus and Muslims have simply been exploited by Hindutva. Pandits have been used as tools by Delhi to malign the kashmiri independence movement as some kind of religious or communal war. Kashmiri Muslims have also been used and deceived, take the Abdullah dynasty in particular. How foolish they now feel, openly favouring misplaced loyalty to Delhi instead of the interests of their own people. Now they languish under arrest without charge, simply for being Muslim and powerful locally, ergo a potential threat. Muslims will always have their wings clipped by Delhi, no matter how much Pooja they do.

A Bizarro version of the truth.

Your first point was the best, and at the same time, shows the gaps in the thinking of those looking at this situation from a distance: both Kashmiri Hindus and Muslims have been deceived - correct - exploited by Hindutva - only partially correct.

The unpleasant fact is that New Delhi has interfered with Kashmir far more than with other Indian states, and the effects show.

The second unpleasant fact is that the collaborators were not dupes; they were willing collaborators, and earned fortunes for themselves in the collaboration.

The third unpleasant fact is that you named one family 'in particular' (yes, it does allow the special plea to be made that the intention was to use them as an example, and not to imply that theirs was the sole responsibility - nevertheless, the phrasing tells its own tale). It was not one family, it was not one faction, it was not one political party; it was an entire social class, that battened and grew fat on the fruits of the troubled situation. This includes both separatist and third-alternative leadership. Each and every one of them was complicit; their names are on the payment lists of both intelligence agencies, their guilt is written large on the landscape in the form of the superior accommodation for tourists that they have built. There is not one who is exempt from this complicity, whether they are on this side of the LOC or that.

Hindutva only contributed a foul stench to the existing situation; they did nothing new. Article 370 was a ridiculous survival of an anomalous constitutional situation, and should have been removed long ago; but it should have been removed by the will of the people, not by the brutality shown. The division into Union Territories displayed precisely the thinking that they have imbibed from those they profess to hate most, a superficial tactical cleverness at the cost of a loss of strategic vision and strategic perspective. They will fail horribly, but they will have added an additional large measure of bitterness to the situation. As is common to each and every one of their brass-faced actions, this too has lost its earlier support among the most rabid followers of the party in Jammu; other than the trading lobby, nobody has any longer any trust in these supremely stupid and supremely bigoted cartoons.

The Pundits ought to return; can they? Panun Kashmir are idiots who want a small sliver of land exclusively for their resettlement and safe havens; how will they protect it from the rest of the state, in the phrasing of the BJP, the rest of the union territory? Unless they dribble back in, in their twos and threes, and settle in quietly without a fuss, and unless their neighbours, who were so hostile, so bigoted that they were forced to leave, genuinely have a change of heart and extend the protection of the community to them, it will not work. Nobody among the present generations of Kashmiris hates them; that hate-filled, violent generation is gone, and good riddance. Only the Kashmiris can solve it, by themselves, and any efforts to deal with it through seemingly well-intentioned third parties is going to fail.

@jamahir

 

[masterchief_mirza]

A Bizarro version of the truth.

Your first point was the best, and at the same time, shows the gaps in the thinking of those looking at this situation from a distance: both Kashmiri Hindus and Muslims have been deceived - correct - exploited by Hindutva - only partially correct.

The unpleasant fact is that New Delhi has interfered with Kashmir far more than with other Indian states, and the effects show.

The second unpleasant fact is that the collaborators were not dupes; they were willing collaborators, and earned fortunes for themselves in the collaboration.

The third unpleasant fact is that you named one family 'in particular' (yes, it does allow the special plea to be made that the intention was to use them as an example, and not to imply that theirs was the sole responsibility - nevertheless, the phrasing tells its own tale). It was not one family, it was not one faction, it was not one political party; it was an entire social class, that battened and grew fat on the fruits of the troubled situation. This includes both separatist and third-alternative leadership. Each and every one of them was complicit; their names are on the payment lists of both intelligence agencies, their guilt is written large on the landscape in the form of the superior accommodation for tourists that they have built. There is not one who is exempt from this complicity, whether they are on this side of the LOC or that.

Hindutva only contributed a foul stench to the existing situation; they did nothing new. Article 370 was a ridiculous survival of an anomalous constitutional situation, and should have been removed long ago; but it should have been removed by the will of the people, not by the brutality shown. The division into Union Territories displayed precisely the thinking that they have imbibed from those they profess to hate most, a superficial tactical cleverness at the cost of a loss of strategic vision and strategic perspective. They will fail horribly, but they will have added an additional large measure of bitterness to the situation. As is common to each and every one of their brass-faced actions, this too has lost its earlier support among the most rabid followers of the party in Jammu; other than the trading lobby, nobody has any longer any trust in these supremely stupid and supremely bigoted cartoons.

The Pundits ought to return; can they? Panun Kashmir are idiots who want a small sliver of land exclusively for their resettlement and safe havens; how will they protect it from the rest of the state, in the phrasing of the BJP, the rest of the union territory? Unless they dribble back in, in their twos and threes, and settle in quietly without a fuss, and unless their neighbours, who were so hostile, so bigoted that they were forced to leave, genuinely have a change of heart and extend the protection of the community to them, it will not work. Nobody among the present generations of Kashmiris hates them; that hate-filled, violent generation is gone, and good riddance. Only the Kashmiris can solve it, by themselves, and any efforts to deal with it through seemingly well-intentioned third parties is going to fail.

@jamahir

Thank you for your informed and brilliantly articulated comments. Some of what you say I agree with, some I don't. You're right that I used the Abdullahs as a case study, while in reality many many clans and individuals dramatically fell from grace recently due to the same short sightedness and weakness. The anguished cry during the arrest of Abdullah senior and his referring to "my India" was quite symbolic of the whole situation in my opinion, hence my constant references to him and this rather symptomatic episode.

As for whether 370 should be removed or should have been removed or should ever have existed in the first place, we will inevitably differ on this. I, for one, feel that unique treaty provisions can well exist in outlying restive states. This is the very nature of autonomy or semi-autonomy that we see the world over. It is almost Marxist-like to enforce identical rules and regulations upon all without considering the uniqueness of certain tribes, states or groups. Even Hindustan makes provisions and always will make provisions for certain groups to enjoy exclusively (scheduled castes, quotas, etc). As I have referred to myself, in NI, the Good Friday Agreement allows for all NI citizens to declare themselves as citizens of RoI, NI, or to be dual nationals of both as per their choosing, to quote but one example of special dispensations that the rest of UK does not benefit from.

Hence, Delhi has pretty much taken something that was just about sustainable and shredded it into pulp.

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

Hello, I clicked the TV remote onto a Right-leaning news channel and they were saying that today ( the 19th of January 2020 ) is the 30th anniversary of the beginning of the driving away of Kashmiri Pandits from their homes by Muslim militants.

The Wikipedia page for "Panun Kashmir" states this :


Whatever the number, successive national governments of India have failed in giving the Pandits proper homes and from what I know, many of them live in slums in Delhi. Perhaps these governments have also used the displaced Pandits as a tool.

I am not Right-leaning yet I believe that the Kashmiri Pandits should be allowed to return to their Kashmiri homeland. Part of the problems in the Kashmir valley will end.

This is my simple message.

---
@Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @The_Showstopper and others.

Good riddance.

WTH will the Pandits, Sikhs and Dogras be in Kashmir?

Kashmir belongs to Muslims.

Kashmir banega Pakistan.

What about the over a million Muslims driven off from Jammu and slaughtered in Kashmir during '47 by the king to quickly change the demographic.

Exactly.

Time has come to eradicate Hindus from South Asia.

Ghazwa-e-Hind has started.

India banega Pakistan.

 

[letsrock]

Kashmiri pandits are an ultra elite community in India who strided the corridors of power in Delhi like anything. 3 of indian prime ministers are kashmiri pandits - Nehru, indira and Rajiv and together they rules india for like half the time about 30 years. IN the valley they are an elite community who hoarded the land, tried their best to prevent local muslims castes from getting educated and when they did tried to divide the muslim community as much as they can. They connived with delhi to have sheik abdullah arrested. Also understand the kashmiri muslims are also divided in to castes. There is a huge failure on behalf of muslims to address their caste based inequality.

As expected nobody in this elite community lives in camps or streets. They were all well taken care off by indian taxpayers money including the taxes of dalits whom a kashmiri pandit traditionally wont even touch.

Morover Kashmiri pandits a well off community with high living standards wont return to kashmiri because it is not longer lucrative enough for them and they can no longer treat local muslims like servants using caste and elitism. Even among hindus Kashmiri Pandits have a notorious reputation of clannish and elitist.

This does not mean they should not return and I dont think anyone is really stopping them to return. But the current govt plan to impose them as settlers with huge mansions and gated communities over impoverished muslims cannot be acceptable.

 

[Lincoln]

Good riddance.

WTH will the Pandits, Sikhs and Dogras be in Kashmir?

Kashmir belongs to Muslims.

Kashmir banega Pakistan.



Exactly.

Time has come to eradicate Hindus from South Asia.

Ghazwa-e-Hind has started.

India banega Pakistan.

Kahan sai aatai hein yeh jokers...

I don't support what you're saying.

 

[jamahir]

Kahan sai aatai hein yeh jokers...

I don't support what you're saying.

I think @Abdul Rehman Majeed is a false-flagger, trying to paint Muslims in a bad light via such explosive statements.

 

[-=virus=-]

Kahan sai aatai hein yeh jokers...

I don't support what you're saying.

comic relief. I enjoy the occasional troll comment and have been guilty of indulging in a bit of it myself

The odd comment is ok, the chronic trolls are the problem.

 

[jamahir]

Only the Kashmiris can solve it, by themselves, and any efforts to deal with it through seemingly well-intentioned third parties is going to fail.

Don't you think someone, maybe from outside, has to light a spark ??

 

[-=virus=-]

Don't you think someone, maybe from outside, has to light a spark ??

That wasn't addressed to me but haven't we had enough of outside forces (and some inside ones too) lighting sparks in Kashmir ?

and all we got was explosions (literally too) of terrorism and separatism.

We need a dousing of those fires, not more lighting of sparks.

 

[jamahir]

That wasn't addressed to me but haven't we had enough of outside forces (and some inside ones too) lighting sparks in Kashmir ?

and all we got was explosions (literally too) of terrorism and separatism.

We need a dousing of those fires, not more lighting of sparks.

So what is the way ??

Someone has to initiate a dialogue.

 

[-=virus=-]

So what is the way ??

Someone has to initiate a dialogue.

370 and the rest have been scrapped. Indian law now applies to Kashmir, let us have a proper integration of these people into mainstream Indian life and remove all Alagwaad sentiments.

I know a quite a few of these guys, Airline pilot to Doctor to businessmen and women, artists.. you name it. But there was always an alagwadi streak in these people, why ? You're doing amazingly well in your life in this country, everything is good, most of your friends are Indians proper.. why still want separate ??

Give the valley full statehood, the current UT being converted to a state, let them have their own politics and vote against the right wing as much as they want, be our Kerala of the north and be socialist and commie.. give them internet and freedom.

Things can change in a generation or 2. Geelani sahab is halfway there, jaldi se apne upar vaaley ko pyare ho jae bkl.

The Hurriyat will fade away.

This has been set in motion by the BJP already but will take time to bear fruit, so let us reassess in another 2 decades or so.

What is your solution, what sort of outside force are you talking about and what would you have it do ?